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Old 01-05-2012, 03:25 AM   #1
ThaKid
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Default Just a thought about "Tanking"....

I know alot of you want to have a high draft pick for the Raptors this coming off season, so you think we should just tank this season. I understand that and a big part of me also agrees with that..

But i really like the fact that we are winning some games and hopefully we can continue on with that. I just think it could potentially be a better thing than tanking and bringing on a winning culture to our team and have our players get used to it. I would really much rather want our core of Derozan, Bargnani, Davis, Johnson&Johnson, and bayless to improve and get better by winning games then welcoming Valencuianas and a good mid round pick (maybe even trade for higher) into that system and culture RATHER than a deflated core of the latter that didnt win games and hoping to be saved by Val and a guy like Barnes or whoever gets drafted high and then potentially have that high draft pick not want to come to/stay in toronto.

To sum it up id rather have our team as a whole bring on a winning culture and improving rather than just being saved by a high draft pick.. Thoughts?!?! hm yea no yea no..

btw first i saw mikael (spell?) petrius at eaton centre a few weeks ago then amir johnson at EC in the champs...coolbeans
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: Just a thought about "Tanking"....

I'm always going to want the Raptors to win, but realistically this team is just not good talented enough to make the playoffs. The bench play is a joke, teams will always go on runs when Bargnani, Derozan and Calderon are out because of the lack of offense. It's very frustrating watching Johnson trying to create his own shot and Magloire missing point-blank layups.
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:19 AM   #3
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Default Re: Just a thought about "Tanking"....

I completely agree with you. Teams with winning cultures always tend to play well and harder than teams who live in the lottery every year. Also, I can't help but to cheer for the Raptors whenever they play. I always want them to win. I'm sick of being the Craptors year after year and receiving no respect around the league. Casey has made this team so much better already and I think they're going to better than any of us expected this year.

I don't understand what anyone sees in Amir though. He never does anything impressive and has less coordination than a drunk Bargnani. I think they should just play Ed Davis way more and have him develop.
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:06 AM   #4
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Default Re: Just a thought about "Tanking"....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocirap31
I completely agree with you. Teams with winning cultures always tend to play well and harder than teams who live in the lottery every year. Also, I can't help but to cheer for the Raptors whenever they play. I always want them to win. I'm sick of being the Craptors year after year and receiving no respect around the league. Casey has made this team so much better already and I think they're going to better than any of us expected this year.

I don't understand what anyone sees in Amir though. He never does anything impressive and has less coordination than a drunk Bargnani. I think they should just play Ed Davis way more and have him develop.


Agree - Amir has been painful to watch this year.
I don't understand why they don't go with Ed and JJ in the starting lineup.
Amir was great off the bench last year against less talented counterparts and Rasual butler would help our bench offence (though I'd rather see forbes develop). I hope they change the starting lineup soon.
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:58 AM   #5
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Default Re: Just a thought about "Tanking"....

a winning culture will have no affect on a team if the team is not actually winning!! so what if we win a few meaningless games here and there? that does not set a culture. If we continue to win these meaningless games then this trend will just continue. If you want a winning culture then you need to have players and a team that has a potential to win against every team on a constant basis. Not just against worthless teams.

We need to tank now and draft. We can only build this team via a draft. We will not be able to get a star player on this team so we need to go via the draft. Also getting a draft pic within the 7-12th spot is also meaningless.

I would have agreed with you if we had a star player on this team that showed a lot of promise and potential. Right now, we do not have that player. We have a collection of very good players that would be gold on a young team with a star (aka the chicago bulls with Rose and his supporting staff)
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:12 PM   #6
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Default Re: Just a thought about "Tanking"....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bada bing
a winning culture will have no affect on a team if the team is not actually winning!! so what if we win a few meaningless games here and there? that does not set a culture. If we continue to win these meaningless games then this trend will just continue. If you want a winning culture then you need to have players and a team that has a potential to win against every team on a constant basis. Not just against worthless teams.

We need to tank now and draft. We can only build this team via a draft. We will not be able to get a star player on this team so we need to go via the draft. Also getting a draft pic within the 7-12th spot is also meaningless.

I would have agreed with you if we had a star player on this team that showed a lot of promise and potential. Right now, we do not have that player. We have a collection of very good players that would be gold on a young team with a star (aka the chicago bulls with Rose and his supporting staff)
Pretty much that.

You only build that winning culture with sustainable talent and winning. Being a consistent contender. Not by creeping into the playoffs as a low seed. That's not going to bring any prestige to your franchise or attract premium free agents. I don't think a Russel Westbrook or Steph Curry would think "oh wow, the Raptors made the playoffs as a 7th seed... I think I'll take a max contract from them rather than a max contract from the other more successful franchises".

Star talent not only help you win in the long run, but it will create that winning culture because it should make your team more attractive to free agents. And, like I've always said, the only way the Raptors are getting these kinds of players is through the draft. I don't want the Raptors to be like the Pacers have been. The Pacers right now look like the model of a treadmill team.
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Old 01-05-2012, 01:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: Just a thought about "Tanking"....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
Pretty much that.

You only build that winning culture with sustainable talent and winning. Being a consistent contender. Not by creeping into the playoffs as a low seed. That's not going to bring any prestige to your franchise or attract premium free agents. I don't think a Russel Westbrook or Steph Curry would think "oh wow, the Raptors made the playoffs as a 7th seed... I think I'll take a max contract from them rather than a max contract from the other more successful franchises".

Star talent not only help you win in the long run, but it will create that winning culture because it should make your team more attractive to free agents. And, like I've always said, the only way the Raptors are getting these kinds of players is through the draft. I don't want the Raptors to be like the Pacers have been. The Pacers right now look like the model of a treadmill team.

Agree with everything else but I think the pacers have a shot at winning in the future. If they could make a really solid trade they could be a contender in a few years.
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Old 01-05-2012, 01:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: Just a thought about "Tanking"....

I'm also a little concerned about the type of player we will get in the draft even if we get a top pick. This is a pure power forward draft. By that I mean the franchise changers are all pf's. We already have 3 pf's and are weak at almost every other position. Harrison Barnes will be a very good nba player, but he is no longer considered to be a franchise type of talent. Andre Drummond may turn into a great centre but thus far he has looked very raw. There are no pg's and the sg's all look about as good as derozan.

Even if we draft Anthony Davis will he get any minutes on this team?
Lots of great talent in the draft but I don't see a really great fit for us at the top of the draft. I guess the best we can hope for is to draft the best talent and then swing a deal to land another piece.
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: Just a thought about "Tanking"....

From what I've seen right now, Anthony Davis is a player you will find minutes for unless you have someone like Blake Griffin on your team. IMO, he is the #1 talent right and enough of a better prospect where you can overlook positional need. If SFs like Kidd-Gilchrist or Barnes catch up to him, then obviously if you're the Raptors you'd lean towards the SF.

I'm not sure about Drummond yet. From the couple games I've seen, he plays with some major ballhogs on that UConn team so it's hard to get a read on what he can do offensively. Plus he's C and I like Valanciunas.

Three players I don't like as NBA prospects are Sullinger, Perry Jones and Terrence Jones.
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:06 PM   #10
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Default Re: Just a thought about "Tanking"....

you never draft by position. You draft the best player available regardless of having a player of the same position on your team. Only a stupid gm would skip out on a great franchise changing player because he already had that position on his team.

If we have a pf available who is regarded as a game changer or an exceptional talent, then we should draft him. Forget about having 3 mediocre pf's on our team. Trade mediocrity away.
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:18 PM   #11
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Default Re: Just a thought about "Tanking"....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bada bing
you never draft by position. You draft the best player available regardless of having a player of the same position on your team. Only a stupid gm would skip out on a great franchise changing player because he already had that position on his team.

If we have a pf available who is regarded as a game changer or an exceptional talent, then we should draft him. Forget about having 3 mediocre pf's on our team. Trade mediocrity away.
I think it depends. If you have a PF who is viewed as a better prospect than an SF but not by much, I wouldn't blame the team for taking the SF. But if the PF is clearly a level above everyone else then damn positional need. Take him and figure things out from there. Right now, at least to me, Anthony Davis is that player compared to everyone else in that lottery.

Examples I would use are:

- You don't take Jonny Flynn (after taking Rubio) over Demar Derozan just because you view Flynn as the better overall talent (regardless of what actually happened). You need to consider positional need there.

- You do take Derrick Rose over Michael Beasley even though you have a decent PG and gaping hole at PF. This one is hindsight for me because I actually believed Beasley would be a great player.

It all depends and that's on the GM and scouting to do their jobs properly.

I'm a fan of Ed Davis but if the Raptors get Anthony Davis, then see ya later Ed. You look to get value for Ed and Bargnani, probably keep Amir as the backup PF/C (what he should be) and enjoy the Davis/Valanciunas frontcourt for at least the next 6 years.
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:45 PM   #12
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Default Re: Just a thought about "Tanking"....

The raps are going to get a good player in the draft. They are not going to trade bargs until they see how him and val do in unison. I'm not a fan of tanking straight out, they'll lose alot of games, they have had a pretty easy sched so far and I still think they'll win 20 games, which should put them in the bottom five in the league. Developing a culture is huge, right now, albeit, only 6 games in, they lead the league in fg % defence and are giving up only 92 points per game. They are a fun team to watch, they play hard and have a nice balance of trying to win, while developing their young guys. Let the results be as they may. I'm totally happy with a 5-8 pick in the draft.
Right how we have clearly have no superstar, but bargs, derozen are pretty good second guys on a team. Val will probably be similar in impact. Maybe our draft pick can be as well, and we can build a team like the pistons, no superstars but a great team. Some cap space might help next summer as well.

Last edited by barkleynash : 01-05-2012 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 01-05-2012, 09:20 PM   #13
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Default Re: Just a thought about "Tanking"....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bada bing
a winning culture will have no affect on a team if the team is not actually winning!! so what if we win a few meaningless games here and there? that does not set a culture. If we continue to win these meaningless games then this trend will just continue. If you want a winning culture then you need to have players and a team that has a potential to win against every team on a constant basis. Not just against worthless teams.

We need to tank now and draft. We can only build this team via a draft. We will not be able to get a star player on this team so we need to go via the draft. Also getting a draft pic within the 7-12th spot is also meaningless.

I would have agreed with you if we had a star player on this team that showed a lot of promise and potential. Right now, we do not have that player. We have a collection of very good players that would be gold on a young team with a star (aka the chicago bulls with Rose and his supporting staff)

In total agreement. Not sure I could have said it better myself.

I'll just add that the Raps pushing for a playoff spot this season is the worst possible scenario for the long term success of this franchise.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:42 AM   #14
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Default Re: Just a thought about "Tanking"....

I agree that we shouldn't be trying to lose, like to deliberately lose games that are there for the taking. You've gotta get some wins to improve the confidence of Derozan and Davis, and to bring attention to the quality play of Bargnani and Calderon on the trade market.

But let's not kid ourselves, even in the weak ass East, this Raptor's team will lose a lot of games and most likely get a top 10 pick. But there are different kinds of bad. There's the kind of bad where it's still fun to watch some young kids play hard, where you can tell they're trying to win, where they sometimes pull off an upset. And then there's bad like the Clippers were for two decades (horribly mismanaged). There's bad like the Nets have been even with Devin Harris and Deron Williams respectively, like Cleveland last year. Where it's just depressing and pathetic and hopeless. There's bad where people question why you're even in the league, why they bother having a team in Canada, where good young players want out as soon as possible.

Let's make a good pick in the lottery this year, but there's no need to tell Casey to lose during his first year on the job so that we can get Anthony Davis. If he turns out to be a superstar, well shit, but I doubt he will.
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