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Old 09-01-2013, 03:14 PM   #16
dr.hee
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Default Re: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory - are they real?

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Originally Posted by MadeFromDust
Um yeah of course that's called faith. As the Bible says, God chose the "foolish" things of the world to confound the "wise" i.e. scientific atheists, agnostics, college culture, etc. So no one that thinks they're all smart and know it all can ever find the way. Only the humble and those with faith can find it.

Maybe the ancient Greeks were right though. Or the Mormons. Or some voodoo priest in Africa. Maybe the Muslims. Or some random UFO cult...
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:04 PM   #17
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Default Re: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory - are they real?

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Originally Posted by MadeFromDust
Um yeah of course that's called faith. As the Bible says, God chose the "foolish" things of the world to confound the "wise" i.e. scientific atheists, agnostics, college culture, etc. So no one that thinks they're all smart and know it all can ever find the way. Only the humble and those with faith can find it.

It seems like you know it all.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory - are they real?

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Originally Posted by gigantes
that was seriously brilliant.

if i may ask, swaggin... was that your own thought?

Yea it actually is my own thought but I am sure others have hypothesized something similar. One could equate it to falling into a black hole or something of that sort.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory - are they real?

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Originally Posted by Swaggin916
I think it's possible that people could be in a limbo state for seemingly forever as your brain slowly comes to a halt.

This could be a kind of worst case scenario. Messed up time perception and being subjectively stuck forever in a state similar to sleep paralysis. You know, like the moment in the morning when you're regaining consciousness but can't move anything. Hate that.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:17 PM   #20
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Default Re: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory - are they real?

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No, I haven't. at least I don't think. I'll check em out for sure. But, collective unconscious has some psychological and scientific merits I think, I'm a big Carl Sagan fan, know some Jung. I think we definitely share some psychological traits (or ingrained "thoughts and past experiences") with our hominid ancestors, maybe even something that can be construed as memories, but I think it's all rooted in evolution (of the brain). Carl Sagan in a book Dragons of Eden for instance talks about one of human's most recurring dreams (the fear of falling) and that clear connection with other primates, who live high in trees and falling equals death...

Touching on Swaggin's post, the release of DMT during death or near death surely would certainly make that limbo state very interesting (I've never taken it, but it's accessible), however I like to think that's more biology and neuroscience more than it is "entering a religious state of judgement" . Interesting notion though. the notion of Time is so hazy when unconscious. For "life's sake", I hope that process in between life and death lasts awhile and is all kinds of badass (Spurs win more championships). But I think hope and belief probably have nothing to do with it.

Does DMT release during that state? And I can't remember if I talked about this here or to someone about it person... but I wonder what the difference is in experience between one who slowly passes and one who goes in the blink of an eye. I would think one who dies instantly wouldn't get the experience that trippy state that happens to those who experience it as a process.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:39 PM   #21
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Default Re: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory - are they real?

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Originally Posted by dr.hee
This could be a kind of worst case scenario. Messed up time perception and being subjectively stuck forever in a state similar to sleep paralysis. You know, like the moment in the morning when you're regaining consciousness but can't move anything. Hate that.
and in those situations, cognitive judgements are pretty much worthless, no?

back when i was in philly, the U. of P. offered something like $5,000 in quick cash if you walked in to the research lab and let them stop your heart and restart it so they could study various biofeedbacks. i loved the idea... was too scared shitless to try it.

and yet for those who do coronary bypass, etc, you have to undergo that procedure anyway, and medical science has gotten it pretty routine and 'safe' by now if i understand right. but what a motherf--king experience that would be for your sense of time and visions, no?
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:29 PM   #22
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Default Re: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory - are they real?

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Originally Posted by gigantes
back when i was in philly, the U. of P. offered something like $5,000 in quick cash if you walked in to the research lab and let them stop your heart and restart it so they could study various biofeedbacks. i loved the idea... was too scared shitless to try it.

Damn, didn't know stuff like that is even legal. Was there some kind of neuroimaging involved? I guess the only way to make any real advances in terms of near death research is to induce cardiac arrest under controlled circumstances tracking any kind of potential brain activity after the heart stopped.
There's a study going on right now in multiple hospitals ( AWARE Study where they're trying to objectify out of body perceptions by installing pictures in the operating room with the idea that at some point, someone will notice something unusual if these experiences are in fact real.
The leading guy of this study is slightly leaning towards a dualistic interpretation, but not a total nutjob like most near death "researchers". It's the most promising attempt at making a serious study about NDEs right now.

Don't know, the stuff you've posted sounds scary, but if I'd be terminally ill or something like that, why not? I mean obviously not while being conscious, but if cardiac arrest is induced during narcosis and you've nothing to lose anyway?
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:59 PM   #23
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Default Re: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory - are they real?

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Originally Posted by dr.hee
Damn, didn't know stuff like that is even legal. Was there some kind of neuroimaging involved? I guess the only way to make any real advances in terms of near death research is to induce cardiac arrest under controlled circumstances tracking any kind of potential brain activity after the heart stopped.
There's a study going on right now in multiple hospitals ( AWARE Study where they're trying to objectify out of body perceptions by installing pictures in the operating room with the idea that at some point, someone will notice something unusual if these experiences are in fact real.
The leading guy of this study is slightly leaning towards a dualistic interpretation, but not a total nutjob like most near death "researchers". It's the most promising attempt at making a serious study about NDEs right now.

Don't know, the stuff you've posted sounds scary, but if I'd be terminally ill or something like that, why not? I mean obviously not while being conscious, but if cardiac arrest is induced during narcosis and you've nothing to lose anyway?
i didn't follow the link, yet, hee. don't quite understand what you're saying.


i love these discussions, but am trying to reserve enough brain cells to finish the stanford lecture. in other words, f--k you.


back in philly there were a lot of struggling students and protest-ideological-types who would have had a rough time surviving if not for these studies. a girl in my group house did a two-week study that paid her a few grand in which the researchers never let her sleep for more than two hours at a time. it was like never cry wolf, if you know that book / film.

i mean, our mammalian nature can apparently remember how to do it if we have enough need. all these skills we have, lying just below the veneer of civilisation...
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:09 PM   #24
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Default Re: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory - are they real?

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Originally Posted by MadeFromDust
Um yeah of course that's called faith. As the Bible says, God chose the "foolish" things of the world to confound the "wise" i.e. scientific atheists, agnostics, college culture, etc. So no one that thinks they're all smart and know it all can ever find the way. Only the humble and those with faith can find it.
What's a god?


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Originally Posted by Swaggin916
No. Just get really super high off some hash and you will feel like what it feels to be dead... cus your more or less braindead.

I will say this though. I don't know what the mind goes through as the body dies because the body dies when the heart stops pumping. You could be conscious enough to experience your version of heaven if you believe whole heartedly that heaven is what awaits you... in that case anything that is considered good or pleasurable by your brain will seem like heaven. Hell is the same thing. That may very well be the last thing you experience before you brain goes kaput... but who knows.
Yep. I guess you could say that Heaven is real and will always be real to those who believe in it, since they'll never find out they were wrong. It will just be lights out, so for all of that person's existence Heaven is "real".

To the theists, I'm not claiming to know for a fact that these things aren't real. I say they're not real in the same sense that I say fairies or Santa Claus are not real. I don't know for a fact that fairies and Santa aren't real either. I'd actually be far more shocked to find out there is an afterlife than I would be finding out fairies really exist.
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Old 09-02-2013, 01:07 AM   #25
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Default Re: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory - are they real?

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Originally Posted by gigantes
have you read any robert anton wilson?
Completely off-topic but this post reminded me of the Illuminatus! trilogy. What a trip! One of my favs. I love this quote from the book:

"Objectivity is presumably the opposite of schizophrenia. Which means that it is nothing but acceptance of everybody else's notion of reality. But nobody's perception of reality is the same as everybody's notion of it, which means that the most objective person is the real schizophrenic"
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Old 09-02-2013, 03:35 AM   #26
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Default Re: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory - are they real?

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Originally Posted by nightprowler10
Completely off-topic but this post reminded me of the Illuminatus! trilogy. What a trip! One of my favs. I love this quote from the book:

"Objectivity is presumably the opposite of schizophrenia. Which means that it is nothing but acceptance of everybody else's notion of reality. But nobody's perception of reality is the same as everybody's notion of it, which means that the most objective person is the real schizophrenic"

Indeed. Subjective, objective... it's all a load of crap. All it boils down to is who can prove their point better. Your subjective could be become the objective point of view real quick (Theories). Of course one's subjective view is shaped by other's viewpoints as well. It's all intertwined.
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Old 09-02-2013, 03:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory - are they real?

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Originally Posted by nightprowler10
Completely off-topic but this post reminded me of the Illuminatus! trilogy. What a trip! One of my favs. I love this quote from the book:

"Objectivity is presumably the opposite of schizophrenia. Which means that it is nothing but acceptance of everybody else's notion of reality. But nobody's perception of reality is the same as everybody's notion of it, which means that the most objective person is the real schizophrenic"
ooh, yea... those were great.


not really a fan of that quote, however. your sense of objectivity doesn't necessarily have anything to do with anybody else's view. if you were living alone on an island, your sense of objectivity would still be distinct from your full schizo state or subconscious or 'imaginative' states. you would still be able to conduct some empirical experiments unless you were too mentally ill, i suppose.

i think it's better to look at this stuff by brain regions, their activity states, and working partnerships between said regions.
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