Have you ever considered that free will doesn't exist? (NOT pre-destination)

[Ben Simmons 25]

Let me be clear, here... I'm not suggesting anything about the idea that this is all mapped out and it's just a recorded movie playing out. That's not what I'm talking about whatsoever.

I'm talking about the idea that we're just chemical bags floating around and as such, everything about us is a combination of genetics and environmental factors and a series of events playing out only as they ever could on an individual basis, while also being chaotic on a large scale basis.

Bear with me here...

I think a lot of you, dare I say most of you, will agree with me that a 2 year old child is composed 100% of nothing other than genetic and environmental factors. They're just along for the ride. They don't have a say. Everything they do, every noise they make, every reaction they have, everything they "think" and feel is nothing of their "own will". They're just programmed entities carrying out their genes and their environmental teachings.

So... if you can get behind the idea that 2 year olds aren't behind the wheel of the car, do we ever actually "take the wheel", so to speak? If so, when do we do it? And how do you know? In my personal life I've posed this question and most haven't even considered it. And the few that have, ended up only offering emotional objections. "3rd grade"... "5 years old"... "18 years old"... "when you move out of your parents" are all the ridiculous answers that I've gotten...

Again, to be clear, this thread and question is not about saying that this is all already known and that we are 100% destined to do a strict set of events and that's it. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is... have you ever considered that we live both in a chaotic universe AND that you are nothing of your own doing, just a series of chemical reactions playing out... in which every thing you do, say, and "think" is really not of you? Not that anyone is controlling you... but that "you" aren't really what "you" think you are... you're just along for the viewing experience.

And I know it really, really seems like you hold your hand up when you want to. Or you type out an ISH post when you want to. Or you sing when you want to. Or you think what you want. Or you eat what you want. It really, really seems that way. But what if that's just an illusion? I consider this often.

Nobody that I've talked to about this has been able to make a definitive argument as to why we have free will... and that resulted in me looking this up.

Apparently, from a scientific perspective, we are currently unable to know, but perhaps neuro-scientists will be able to definitively answer this question one day. But apparently what is true, is that the parts of your brain that control functions, light up ahead of time and thus it can be predicted what you're going to do. So in other words... if you want to raise your right arm, if you're hooked up to equipment, they can see the brain signal indicating that you're going to raise your right arm... before you actually do.

I've never read about this subject until very recently and I've only read very little since... but yeah... apparently also Einstein said the following...

"In 1931, Einstein, in response to questions about belief in free will, responded with the following comparison of the will of the moon:

“If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord…. So would a being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.”

Which would lend credence to the idea posed in this thread.

Anyways, I've ordered a few books on the subject supporting both viewpoints, but until then... I wonder what ISH thinks.

[Ben Simmons 25]

Examine your individual thoughts.

Do you ever have thoughts pop into your head that you are completely unable to identify why that thought popped into your head? Doesn't have to be bad, doesn't have to be good, doesn't have to be rational or irrational...

And if you can't explain those thoughts and you didn't generate them, how do you explain their origin? This may be the easiest way for me to try to convey what I'm saying here.

[egokiller]

[highwhey]

i think you're taking the definition of free will too literal.

we still have to abide by nature's rules. jsut because we have free will means we won't defy physics. life has it's own rules as well. you're right in the fact that environment has an effect, but ultimately we do have a choice. isn't that what you're arguing? so there you go.

i think you're confusing free will with GTA V where you can go and do whatever you want in the world. life itself has restrictions.

[Loco 50]

Yes, free will exists as demonstrated by the loss of inhibition with frontotemporal dementia.

The frontal lobe is essentially Freud's superego. It handles every moral dilemma that a person faces. If it's damaged the id takes control. The id is just selfish, animilistic survival.

Do I want to eat? Take the food. Eat.
Do I want sex? Take it.
Do I want to hurt someone? Do it.

Id.

The superego, blocks this. Knock out the frontal lobe and you get severe personality changes. Someone mild and controlled becomes random, violent, and unable to restrain themselves in social settings. Look up Phineas Gage.
Poor guy survived a railroad spike through his skull, but reportedly he changed from a mild-mannered, thoughtful person to a belligerent asshole. He lost his free will and became a slave to his more primitive functioning brain.

Frontotemporal dementia patients are usually middle aged folks that undergo the drastic personality changes as described above due to a loss of frontal lobe cortex of unknown causes. They no longer have free will to stop the ideas that they consider.

Anyone that has dealt with a parent dealing with Alzheimer's has faced similar changes in personality but more gradual than FTD and much later in life, thankfully.

Aside note: It's very normal to have fleeting thoughts of punching someone in the face, of jumping off a bridge, of walking in front of traffic. Everyone has them. In a normal person, they pass and you don't act on them. When they become persistent is when they are problematic and obviously, moreso if they are acted upon.



As for when free will engages, I believe it's the moment you become aware of the combination of your own existence and the consequences of your actions. For some that is a younger age than others. I dare say, some may never become fully aware as our jails are full of people that never understood the meaning of consequences.

Obviously our free will is limited by our biological/environmental capabilities. Most will not be able to will themselves into a professional sport no matter how much they desire/work for it.

As for Einstein, he had a lot of funky ideas that were eventually disproven in not only his own field, but in many other facets of life as well.

One of the most brilliant people that ever existed, but it should be comforting to the rest of us that even the best of us can be incredibly wrong.

Neuroscience has progressed profoundly since Einstein's days. Honestly, neuroscience did not even exist as a field until imaging was developed in the late nineties early 2000's. Imaging allows us to not only see what parts of the brain light up prior to movement, but which parts light up when an emotion is aroused, when a memory is stirred, when a plan is thought up etc etc and can be assigned to various regions of the brain very reliably. When said portions of the brain are then damaged those functions become predictably impaired.

Neurotransmitters can and are altered by various behaviors and drugs. If you want to argue that whether or not we obey the thought to alter those nt's was out of our hands in the first place then I suppose it becomes a chicken or egg situation that will never be solved.

[Loco 50]

Examine your individual thoughts.

Do you ever have thoughts pop into your head that you are completely unable to identify why that thought popped into your head? Doesn't have to be bad, doesn't have to be good, doesn't have to be rational or irrational...

And if you can't explain those thoughts and you didn't generate them, how do you explain their origin? This may be the easiest way for me to try to convey what I'm saying here.

Just because you can't explain them does not mean that you did not generate them.

There is the conscious and the unconscious.

[iamgine]

OP need to explain what qualifies as free will.

[Prometheus]

Chemical bags

[warriorfan]

Jason Terry
[COLOR="White"]If there was such thing as free will LeBron would have never gotten outscored by Jason Terry in the NBA finals[/COLOR]

[DCL]

u gotta stop watching youtube videos late at night and taking them so seriously.

[Rolando]

This has plenty of implications for religious people. For their system to work, there has to be Free Will. Otherwise why should anybody be held accountable for their own actions. Ultimately this has consequences for our legal system too.

[RoseCity07]

I've pretty much acccepted that idea for a few years now. Sam Harris talks a lot about this. It also doesn't really matter because we feel as though we do have it. It does have a great implications for our criminal justice system though.

Google Robert Sapolsky. He knows a lot about behavior and the brain and he talks about this. This basically means no criminal is truely responsible for their crimes. We still need to put these people in prison but it should make us think about words like punishment. Why would we punish someone for a behavior they can't control?

I think maybe our prisons shouldn't be about punishment. Seeing as that doesn't really correct behavior anyway. We should be figuring out way to help these people that can't help themselves.

[Ben Simmons 25]

i think you're taking the definition of free will too literal.

we still have to abide by nature's rules. jsut because we have free will means we won't defy physics. life has it's own rules as well. you're right in the fact that environment has an effect, but ultimately we do have a choice. isn't that what you're arguing? so there you go.

i think you're confusing free will with GTA V where you can go and do whatever you want in the world. life itself has restrictions.

I'm not talking about defying physics. I'm saying that a two year old's personality is 100% derived from genetics and environmental factors such as having a single parent, both parents, no parents, and how those parents raise them, how well off they are, how much they commit to raising them, etc... a whole plethora of factors, none of which have anything to do with what the two year old has chosen, because he/she chooses nothing. And if that's true for a two year old, at what point do people take the wheel?

[Ben Simmons 25]

Chemical bags

Emotional argument.

[Ben Simmons 25]

u gotta stop watching youtube videos late at night and taking them so seriously.

Has nothing to do with watching videos or consuming any media. Just simply a passing series of thoughts.