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Old 06-20-2018, 07:35 AM   #46
Stephonit
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

If LeBron's teams are mediocre in the regular season, that's partly on him. They're capable of making it to the finals, so why are they mediocre in the regular season?

Maybe if his teams had used the regular season to sharpen their play they would be a stronger team in the finals.
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:41 AM   #47
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by warriorfan
What a long way to say “LeBron needs more help”
No shit, Sherlock. The Warriors have 2 MVP's, a DPOY, an All-NBA, and a FMVP off the bench. LeBron is the GOAT, but even he can't beat that team with the scrubs he has.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephonit
If LeBron's teams are mediocre in the regular season, that's partly on him. They're capable of making it to the finals, so why are they mediocre in the regular season?

Maybe if his teams had used the regular season to sharpen their play they would be a stronger team in the finals.
Probably because LeBron doesn't play nearly the whole games in the RS.
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:53 AM   #48
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
LeBron averaged 31/15/9/1 on 39% shooting in those three losses. If you disregard the horrific game 4, dude put up 36/16/10/2 on 42% in the finals two losses. This was a 58 win Cavs team playing a 67 win Warriors team. Oh, and the Cavs were missing two of their best players, while the Warriors were 100% healthy.

Aside from the dismal shooting percentage, I'm going to go on a bit of a tangent because I have a personal gripe when players site defensive rebounds as if that somehow shows "impact".

Lebron does not box out to get his rebounds, he takes away the rebounds that his bigs should be getting. So at best it's a moot point.

Quote:
Again, the Cavs, a mediocre 51 win team was playing a juggernaut superteam and LeBron put up 34/12/10 on 64% TS (the only triple double in Finals history) while being guarded by Green/KD/Iggy/Klay.

Are you talking about 2017/2018? He gave up on defense in those two Finals series. There's a grand total of approximately 35 minutes of video evidence on youtube of him flat-out not playing any kind of inspired defense.

Quote:
You really think this Cavs team would've won if LeBron played slightly better defense? LeBron had a better DFG% than Green/KD/Klay/Iggy. Dude held his defensive cover to 41% shooting (compared to their usual 51% shooting).

Not sure where you're getting your stats.

Quote:
63% [17-27] Warriors when guarded by Lebron.



Quote:
I mean, you're expecting a team with LeBron/Love/Hill/TT/Korver/JR/etc. to beat a superteam with the DPOY, 2 MVP's, All-NBA, and a FMVP? You're an idiot if you do.

The thread title is "What more should Lebron have done," not "Could Lebron have won?" Nobody knows if he could have won if he played better, or the best he could, because he didn't.


Quote:
There hasn't been a player in the history of the sport who could replace LeBron on the '17/'18 squads and won the title. Literally none.

You're moving the goal posts. Could Lebron have done more? Yes. That is not an opinion, that is not a "theory", and that is not conjecture. It is a proven fact that he could have done more and played better. Why do we know this? Because there is video evidence of him not playing passable NBA-level defense. In 2017 and 2018 his biggest issue was defense. In 2015, his biggest issue was shooting.

I actually think his 2015 performance was his "best" in terms of pure domination for a stretch since he had to take on a bigger burden and delivered for the most part, but down the stretch he missed a lot.

Didn't he miss the most shots in NBA Finals history during that 2015 series?
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:30 AM   #49
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
Aside from the dismal shooting percentage, I'm going to go on a bit of a tangent because I have a personal gripe when players site defensive rebounds as if that somehow shows "impact".

Lebron does not box out to get his rebounds, he takes away the rebounds that his bigs should be getting. So at best it's a moot point.
So, now you're claiming that LeBron is just statpadding his rebounds? I see that you're just a troll. Lets not forget that LeBron also had the 4th most ORB's in the '15 Finals. The other 3 were TT, Moz, and Barnes.

Again, as I said, LeBron shot 40% in the Finals. Funny how you ignored that. To put that in perspective, Jordan shot 41% in the '96 Finals and Kobe shot 38% over his first FOUR Finals.

Why did you ignore the part about the losses? You claimed that LeBron shot like shit in the two losses. Although he was terrible in G4, he shot 42% in the final two losses. Way to cherrypick arguments.

In all, LeBron averaged 36/13/9 on 40% in the '15 Finals and took a 67 win superteam to 6 games which is #2 and #3 out. Imagine Kobe on the '01 Lakers without.. lets say Shaq and Fisher or MJ in '96 without Pippen and Rodman. They still would've won rings, right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
Are you talking about 2017/2018? He gave up on defense in those two Finals series. There's a grand total of approximately 35 minutes of video evidence on youtube of him flat-out not playing any kind of inspired defense.
Yeah, you have fun watching Nobody Touches Jordan. It's not like he's biased at all. Dude is retarded AF and his videos are trash.

I'm not going to research the whole shit and post everything again, so I'll just repost this from another poster:

Lebron 's defense while matched against GSW



GSW defender matched against Lebron



Lebrons two primary matchups: Durant and Dray

57 possessions KD gaurded by Lebron = 16 pts, 5-9 (out of 52 possible)
38 possessions Dray guarded by Lebron = 0 pts, 0-2 (out of 18 possible)


On the other hand......

76 possessions Lebron guarded by KD = 43 pts, 15-23
32 possessions Lebron guarded by Dray = 18 pts, 7-12


KD nearly refusing to even ISO or put a shot up against James the past two games, getting most all his points off switches, mismatches and FT's

Meanwhile, GSW bringing wave after wave of Dray/KD at Lebron (hard doubles all last gm2) and not slowing him down a lick

This not accounting for points scored off playmaking, fast breaks or cleaning glass either, just individual scoring.

http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/mat...atchup=Defense



Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
Not sure where you're getting your stats.



Definitely not pictures like yourself. How about the official NBA website with player tracking?



http://stats.nba.com/players/defense...MINU S&dir=-1

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
The thread title is "What more should Lebron have done," not "Could Lebron have won?" Nobody knows if he could have won if he played better, or the best he could, because he didn't.
Is English not your first language? OP was implying what more LeBron could've done to win rings in '15, '17, and '18. There's always something more ANY player in ANY series could've done. Heck, LeBron could've taken more shots in those 3 series or he could've passed more etc.. That's not the point of this thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
You're moving the goal posts. Could Lebron have done more? Yes. That is not an opinion, that is not a "theory", and that is not conjecture. It is a proven fact that he could have done more and played better. Why do we know this? Because there is video evidence of him not playing passable NBA-level defense. In 2017 and 2018 his biggest issue was defense. In 2015, his biggest issue was shooting.
So, you want a player to drop 35 point triple doubles on ELITE efficiency every single game and play DPOY level defense? All this while the player is in his 15th season and going on 8 straight NBA Finals? At what point do you remove your hater glasses and see that you're expecting something which is pretty much not humanly possible?

Anyways, as I said, LeBron's defense was bad in the '17 Finals, but he wasn't bad in '18. Also, if your shot isn't falling, it isn't something which you can magically fix or get better at in the middle of the Finals. Not to mention he was guarded pretty well by Iggy and even then, he shot 40%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
I actually think his 2015 performance was his "best" in terms of pure domination for a stretch since he had to take on a bigger burden and delivered for the most part, but down the stretch he missed a lot.

Didn't he miss the most shots in NBA Finals history during that 2015 series?
Nope. Rick Barry and Elgin Baylor missed more.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:40 AM   #50
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
So, now you're claiming that LeBron is just statpadding his rebounds?

No. I'm asking how does mentioning his ability to get defensive rebounds that TT/Love/Green could get instead impact the overall game or hold any relevance. If you can explain that then maybe we can actually talk basketball and not boxscores.

Quote:
Lets not forget that LeBron also had the 4th most ORB's in the '15 Finals. The other 3 were TT, Moz, and Barnes.

The Cavs are a better rebounding team than the Warriors. They have been in every Finals.

Quote:
Again, as I said, LeBron shot 40% in the Finals. Funny how you ignored that. To put that in perspective, Jordan shot 41% in the '96 Finals and Kobe shot 38% over his first FOUR Finals.

And in 2015 he shot approximately 30% outside of 3 feet when guarded by Iggy. Is that passable to you?

Jordan shooting 41% is not passable but at least he was guarded by Gary Payton, one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever.

Also Kobe being injured in the 2000 Finals bumps his percentage down a bit, but I don't care about Kobe nor his Finals performances because I'm hardly a fan of him or Jordan for that matter.

Quote:
Why did you ignore the part about the losses? You claimed that LeBron shot like shit in the two losses. Although he was terrible in G4, he shot 42% in the final two losses. Way to cherrypick arguments.

42% is pretty abysmal.

Quote:
In all, LeBron averaged 36/13/9 on 40% in the '15 Finals and took a 67 win superteam to 6 games which is #2 and #3 out. Imagine Kobe on the '01 Lakers without.. lets say Shaq and Fisher or MJ in '96 without Pippen and Rodman. They still would've won rings, right?

Could they have? Maybe. As in...could the Mavs have won the 2011 Finals with an aging Dirk and his #2 option being Jason Terry and his #3 option being Marion/Barrea/Chandler/Old Kidd? Sure.

Anything is possible. Like coming back from a 3-1 deficit in the Finals.

Quote:
Yeah, you have fun watching Nobody Touches Jordan. It's not like he's biased at all. Dude is retarded AF and his videos are trash.

I'm not going to research the whole shit and post everything again, so I'll just repost this from another poster:

Lebron 's defense while matched against GSW



GSW defender matched against Lebron



Lebrons two primary matchups: Durant and Dray

57 possessions KD gaurded by Lebron = 16 pts, 5-9 (out of 52 possible)
38 possessions Dray guarded by Lebron = 0 pts, 0-2 (out of 18 possible)


On the other hand......

76 possessions Lebron guarded by KD = 43 pts, 15-23
32 possessions Lebron guarded by Dray = 18 pts, 7-12


KD nearly refusing to even ISO or put a shot up against James the past two games, getting most all his points off switches, mismatches and FT's

Meanwhile, GSW bringing wave after wave of Dray/KD at Lebron (hard doubles all last gm2) and not slowing him down a lick

This not accounting for points scored off playmaking, fast breaks or cleaning glass either, just individual scoring.

http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/mat...atchup=Defense


Definitely not pictures like yourself. How about the official NBA website with player tracking?



http://stats.nba.com/players/defense...MINU S&dir=-1

Please do not include Draymond in your stats. He is literally left unguarded at the 3 point line. No one cares about how "well" Lebron guards Draymond. It's how well he can guard Durant, which he can't.

Also, the stats you posted are useless since Durant's total FGA was a whopping 9.

And there's video proof of Lebron refusing to guard KD down the stretch. Do you want me to post the Game 3 shot? I'm sure you already know about that play.

If we go by Defensive Effeciency metrics, which attempts to best measure individual defense. In the 2017-2018 post-season Lebron is ranked....



121. Behind Kevin Love.

Quote:
Is English not your first language? OP was implying what more LeBron could've done to win rings in '15, '17, and '18. There's always something more ANY player in ANY series could've done. Heck, LeBron could've taken more shots in those 3 series or he could've passed more etc.. That's not the point of this thread.

Yes it is, otherwise he would have asked what could have done to win. Even still, asking him to play better defense isn't a tall order since his defense fell off a cliff.

Quote:
So, you want a player to drop 35 point triple doubles on ELITE efficiency every single game and play DPOY level defense? All this while the player is in his 15th season and going on 8 straight NBA Finals? At what point do you remove your hater glasses and see that you're expecting something which is pretty much not humanly possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ESPN
On shots contested by Iguodala, James is shooting 24 percent from the field.

"Elite" efficiency.

https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/st...ts-prove-it%2F

Quote:
Kevin Durant is now shooting 13-of-21 for 31 points when defended by LeBron James

"Scared to ISO Lebron."

Quote:
Anyways, as I said, LeBron's defense was bad in the '17 Finals, but he wasn't bad in '18. Also, if your shot isn't falling, it isn't something which you can magically fix or get better at in the middle of the Finals. Not to mention he was guarded pretty well by Iggy and even then, he shot 40%.

He was ranked 121st in Defensive Efficiency. He was bad.

You're right. It isn't something you can "magically" fix. But maybe he should have worked on his shot more?

Quote:
Nope. Rick Barry and Elgin Baylor missed more.

In 2015 he missed more shots than Curry attempted.

I think Lebron does hold the record for turnovers though in the Finals now. Something else he should improve.
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Old 06-20-2018, 05:45 PM   #51
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
No. I'm asking how does mentioning his ability to get defensive rebounds that TT/Love/Green could get instead impact the overall game or hold any relevance. If you can explain that then maybe we can actually talk basketball and not boxscores.
It's not guaranteed that any of them get the rebound. You want LeBron to NOT get defensive rebounds and give up offensive rebounds to the opposing team? That's just beyond stupid. Why does anyone else rebound then? Why does Kobe average 6 a game in the Finals? He should've left them to Shaq/Pau. Why does MJ average 6? He should've let his bigs or Pippen get those rebounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
The Cavs are a better rebounding team than the Warriors. They have been in every Finals.
Yeah, no shit. A lot of that has to do with LeBron upping his rebounding numbers from the RS to the PO's to the Finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
And in 2015 he shot approximately 30% outside of 3 feet when guarded by Iggy. Is that passable to you?
Those are ~25% of LeBron's TOTAL number of shots. Iggy guarded LeBron on 54 of his 196 shot attempts in the Finals. Yeah, when a player is scoring 36/13/9 on 40%, that a fantastic series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
Jordan shooting 41% is not passable but at least he was guarded by Gary Payton, one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever.
This is just hilarious. LeBron had Iggy on him, Green in the paint, and Klay waiting to help. That's what LeBron was against. Jordan is excused for shooting like shit because he had GP guarding him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
Also Kobe being injured in the 2000 Finals bumps his percentage down a bit, but I don't care about Kobe nor his Finals performances because I'm hardly a fan of him or Jordan for that matter.
So, if he was hurt, should be have thrown the ball to arguably the GOAT C, or should he have jacked up 20 shots while only making 4? Not that difficult of a question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
42% is pretty abysmal.
Well, Kobe averaged 41% in the Finals for his career. You might also want to look up MJ's 2nd 3peat efficiency. It's one missed shot a game away from being equal to LeBron's '15 Finals efficiency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
Could they have? Maybe. As in...could the Mavs have won the 2011 Finals with an aging Dirk and his #2 option being Jason Terry and his #3 option being Marion/Barrea/Chandler/Old Kidd? Sure.
You think Kobe in '01 without Shaq and Fisher and MJ in '96 without Pippen and Rodman are winning titles? Jesus. You're either delusional AF or just a straight up troll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
Anything is possible. Like coming back from a 3-1 deficit in the Finals.
Shaq and Fisher combined for 44/17/7/2/4 in '01. 45% of their teams points, 38% of the rebounds, 30% of the assists, 25% of the steals, and 50% of the blocks. Just remove them and the Lakers are winning jack shit. Lets not forget that Shaq was by FAR the best player in the Finals that year and you're just removing him from the team.

Same goes for the Bulls team. Rodman and Pippen were crucial to the team. They're not even making the Finals, let alone win it without them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
Please do not include Draymond in your stats. He is literally left unguarded at the 3 point line. No one cares about how "well" Lebron guards Draymond. It's how well he can guard Durant, which he can't.
Try reading my post. Those are simple English words and simple numbers. Not really that hard to comprehend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
Also, the stats you posted are useless since Durant's total FGA was a whopping 9.
That's because he wasn't even trying to score against LeBron.

57 possessions KD gaurded by Lebron = 16 pts, 5-9 (out of 52 possible)

KD only tried to score 9 times on the 57 possessions that he was guarded by LeBron. Compare that to Green, where he was guarded by LeBron fewer times than KD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
And there's video proof of Lebron refusing to guard KD down the stretch. Do you want me to post the Game 3 shot? I'm sure you already know about that play.
You can cherrypick a couple of possessions all you want, but it won't change the FACTS. Something which you have yet to provide. All your arguments are "because i said so!!1".

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
If we go by Defensive Effeciency metrics, which attempts to best measure individual defense. In the 2017-2018 post-season Lebron is ranked....



121. Behind Kevin Love.
That's cute and all, but LeBron was never a net negative. In fact, he led the league in overall impact.

http://stats.nba.com/players/advance...nType=Playoffs

No one in the league had more impact in the Playoffs than LeBron James.

In the Finals, it was KD at #1 and LeBron at #2.

http://stats.nba.com/players/advance...offs&PORound=4

Also, the stat you're using is called DRtg (Defensive Rating). It's not solely an individual stat. It takes team stats into account to get that result. So, when LeBron is on a trash defensive team playing the most minutes, he's going to have a lower DRtg than any other player.

On the other hand, DFG% is exclusively a player based stat and takes NO other team stat into account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
Yes it is, otherwise he would have asked what could have done to win.
No, it isn't. OP is an idiot and he makes threads like this every day. He's trying to ask people what else LeBron could've done to win, as people are using this loss as an excuse to trash him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
Even still, asking him to play better defense isn't a tall order since his defense fell off a cliff.
Yeah, it is. You might want to go and try to read my previous post about LeBron's defense again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
Way to bring up the '15 Finals, when I was OBVIOUSLY talking about the '17 and '18 Finals. LeBron's defense wasn't bad in '15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
"Scared to ISO Lebron."
And this is from '17, IIRC. Yeah, I said LeBron's defense was bad in '17. Please at least try to read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
He was ranked 121st in Defensive Efficiency. He was bad.
Sure, if you use team based metics, the player who plays the most minutes on a shit defensive team s going to have a bad defensive rating.

DRtg =/= defensive efficiency, BTW. Try to learn what these metrics are before you just throw them around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
You're right. It isn't something you can "magically" fix. But maybe he should have worked on his shot more?
Yeah, he should've pushed the Finals by about 3 months, worked on his jump shot and then comeback to play. This was also during the time when LeBron has his back issues and had ZERO lift (by his standards). So, there's that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
In 2015 he missed more shots than Curry attempted.
Wrong again, as usual, kiddo. You might want to go back and check your stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
I think Lebron does hold the record for turnovers though in the Finals now. Something else he should improve.
Yeah, he is. He's also #2 in points scored in the Finals and #2 in assists, so it's not that surprising that he leads in TOV's.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:26 PM   #52
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

retire
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Old 06-20-2018, 10:13 PM   #53
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

Quote:
I would say:

2015- 60/15/15 on 79% FG

2017- 95/30/20 on 95% FG (assuming teammates get at least 30 points so they end up with like 130 pts total, Warriors get that in their sleep, if not then Lebron needed to average 120+ at least) while keeping Durant to low points.

2018- 110/30/20 on 100% FG (assuming teammates get at least 30 points, if not then Lebron needed to average 130) while keeping Durant to low points.


What are you all debating? This is the simplest answer, as funny as it is its actually true, that is what was required from him considering the circumstances.

Last edited by pauk : 06-20-2018 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 06-20-2018, 10:36 PM   #54
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

I think it seems someone suggested defense.... hahaha...

Ok ok he could have definitely played better defense, but come on!? How the hell do you think that would affect the outcome of the series.... you have damn high hopes if you think Cavs win if he holds Durant to even 0 points (when Warriors have killed Lebron/Cavs without him and can/could win without him again).... Wait you think maybe Lebron should have held everybody to 0 points? Then yea, he wins.. he should have done that...

Stop trolling.... the only thing that would won him the series is if he produced triple as much points, rebs, asts on higher %.... thats all.... or ofcourse if he had a better team....
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:41 PM   #55
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

Should Lebron have:

A) Scored more points

B) Grabbed more rebounds

C) Dished more assists




What more should he have done?
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:01 AM   #56
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Docs Orders
Should Lebron have:

A) Scored more points

B) Grabbed more rebounds

C) Dished more assists




What more should he have done?

D) All of the above
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:29 AM   #57
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Docs Orders
So you’re blaming a 33 year old LeBron for not guarding the best scorer in the league while having to carry the Cavs in points, rebounds, and assists





Why does Lebron have to do everything?

lebitchandmoan

33 y.o. mj playing full court d on the glove

35 y.o. mj chasing reggie through screens, cuts in game 7

meanwhile, LeGOAT gives his team this kinda defense

buh buh buh he's 33 years old.

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Old 06-21-2018, 03:54 AM   #58
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

Maybe win?
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:15 AM   #59
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

He could've done a ton more
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:17 AM   #60
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Default Re: What more should LeBron have done in the 2015, 2017, 2018 Finals?

But ur only.looking at stats
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