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Old 11-20-2018, 07:25 PM   #61
Overdrive
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Default Re: Rank these bands in order of combined instrumental and songwriting skill

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Originally Posted by 72-10
Are these your ranks, dude? How you gonna rank the Stones 7th in songwriting?:big gums:

And you're completely full of it if you think Led Zeppelin had more instrumental skill than Cream. It's clearly Cream. There's no question to any musician. You ranked Zeppelin above THE ROLLING STONES in songwriting. Zeppelin stole more than any other artist in the history of the genre.

I had a long post explaining everything in detail.

Peak Stones would be top 3 in songwriting between those bands. Which rank I don't know, but their cheese phase was longer than that of the Beatles. Majesty was admittely an attempt to outdo the Beatles.
Anything after that until and including Sticky Fingers is some of the greatest music ever. But their overall Oeuvre isn't on par with those shortlived bands. They had the advantage to die(some literally) after their peak albums.

That also favour Zeppelin. For my personal taste it's a tie, I love both these bands, but even their weaker albums have well written songs, Dirty Work, Undercover? That's some lazy writing on their side.

I'm a musician so? JPJ is a multiinstrumentalist and even as a big Brucie fan he couldn't give a band what Jones could. Page and Clapton is a question of taste. Clapton definately was more on point, but tone and riffing is on Page's side imo. Bonham is just more fitting for a Hard Rock Band. Baker was a Jazz drummer who brought alot of that into Cream. Singing is no contest but prefer Bruce over Clapton.

Overall it's very close, not like Cream where pros and LZ some garage band. Both bands consisted of professional studio musicians. Could make it a T-1.

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Someone is ranking Black Sabbath way too high on instrumental skill IMO and I'm a huge fan but honestly Tony Iommi made some great riffs but I wouldn't include him in my top 25 guitarists, Geezer Butler was a decent bassist but nothing special really and Bill Ward wasn't that great a drummer.

No mention of Rush on skills? Alex Lifeson, great and underrated guitarist but he was overshadowed in that band because Geddy Lee is a great bassist and Neil Peart is arguably the best drummer in rock alongside Tool's Danny Carey.

Butler decent? He was great for the time. You have to judge musicians within the context. McCartney was the first renown player to stop doing stupid arpeggios(which were used at best! Most stuff was whole note roots, quarters on the root and 3rd/5th) and create melodic, countermelodic inversed lines, etc, etc. That was 5 years before that JPJ, Entwistle and Butler freed the bass from being an afterthought.

Carol Kaye and Phil Lesh are also early pioneers.

Why would you bring Rush into that? The vienna philharmonic orchestra is also more skilled than any of the mentioned bands, so?
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Old 11-21-2018, 03:52 PM   #62
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Default Re: Rank these bands in order of combined instrumental and songwriting skill

Well, it's true that I forgot to consider singing as an instrument… by the way, have you heard Field Day for the Sundays?

And I forgot to include the fact that Jonesy could play otros instruments. But it's still Cream for skill. Clapton was mo better at guitar. If you dispute that, you look like a Fool. Clapton's ability to solo with speed, accuracy, fluidity and most importantly, a unique sound, are unparalleled in all of rock outside of Hendrix. Clapton had that "woman tone". Bruce was way mo better at bass if you ask me. Did you forget that Bruce played a fretless bass? Led Zeppelin's second album is great bass playing, but outside of that, Jonesy mostly stayed in the groove, with that huge help that Bonham provided, and played way too many root notes to accompany Page's brilliant riffs (although Jones wrote the Black Dog riff) - and when compared with the likes of Bruce soloing at the same time as Clapton. Like on Crossroads.

Bonham was a greater drummer than Baker, but he wasn't that much mo better at it than Baker. For instance, Outside Woman Blues has different fills in every ****ing measure, that's ****ing nuts.

Last edited by 72-10 : 11-21-2018 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 11-21-2018, 04:02 PM   #63
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Default Re: Rank these bands in order of combined instrumental and songwriting skill

I question whether the Jagger-Richards songwriting is a greater songwriting than Brian Wilson.
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Old 11-21-2018, 04:46 PM   #64
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Default Re: Rank these bands in order of combined instrumental and songwriting skill

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Originally Posted by 72-10
Well, it's true that I forgot to consider singing as an instrument… by the way, have you heard Field Day for the Sundays?

Just looked for that. Don't get the correlation.

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Originally Posted by 72-10
And I forgot to include the fact that Jonesy could play otros instruments. But it's still Cream for skill. Clapton was mo better at guitar. If you dispute that, you look like a Fool. Clapton's ability to solo with speed, accuracy, fluidity and most importantly, a unique sound, are unparalleled in all of rock outside of Hendrix. Clapton had that "woman tone". Bruce was way mo better at bass if you ask me. Did you forget that Bruce played a fretless bass? Led Zeppelin's second album is great bass playing, but outside of that, Jonesy mostly stayed in the groove, with that huge help that Bonham provided, and played way too many root notes to accompany Page's brilliant riffs (although Jones wrote the Black Dog riff) - and when compared with the likes of Bruce soloing at the same time as Clapton. Like on Crossroads.

Bonham was a greater drummer than Baker, but he wasn't that much mo better at it than Baker. For instance, Outside Woman Blues has different fills in every ****ing measure, that's ****ing nuts.

At some level playing fretless doesn't mean anything. It's a tone choice not a skill one. He played an EB-3 with Cream, overdriven fretless sounds like ass imo. Jones went more pocketing later on, but still had crazy melodic songs. I don't think his skills diminished, the songs just weren't as open for the bass as these blues heavy, stolen songs from the first albums were. You can absolutely go crazy on those 3 chord songs. Stuff like Kashmir? That's pretty tough to put some free melodic playing on that.

Bruce definately had a more independant approach, but that also came from the material. Cream never had songs like Achilles Last Stand(don't get me wrong I prefer a lot of Cream's stuff over that one)which demanded keeping it simple. Not saying he couldn't do that. Of course he could, he was an absolute master. I feel you think I don't respect Cream's musicianship, but infact I think those were the two most skillfull non-prog rock bands that existed. Bruce and Jones were/are absolute heroes of mine, so I'm arguing against on of my favourite bands, because I feel a little different than you, but it's just a tad.

Clapton was better trained. As said Page was sloppy, but he was no slouch and if you prefer that one, two or three chord riffing style he pushed to extremes I think he's a better choice than early Clapton. Page couldn't have worked on Cream and Clapton couldn't on Led Zeppelin even if he was the better player. If I'd start a band from scratch without any material at hand I'm taking Clapton 100%, though.

Wouldn't say Bonham was better, just different.

Ever gave West, Bruce & Laing a shot?

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I question whether the Jagger-Richards songwriting is a greater songwriting than Brian Wilson.

Peak a bit ahead maybe. Prime, no, career? No contest. His opus magnus is one album I wouldn't over any of my three favourite Stones albums and a second kinda finished one. That and ripping Chuck Berry is too little for me.
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Old 11-25-2018, 01:03 PM   #65
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Default Re: Rank these bands in order of combined instrumental and songwriting skill

A song like Black Sabbath's "Cornucopia" - I think that might give a band like Led Zeppelin a hard time, it's probably more complex than any song they ever played. There must be about seven different parts to the song, replete with changes in metre and key. And I don't really see them playing "SWLABR", mostly because PAGE CANNOT PLAY AS WELL AS CLAPTON.

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Old 11-25-2018, 04:40 PM   #66
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Default Re: Rank these bands in order of combined instrumental and songwriting skill

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Originally Posted by 72-10
A song like Black Sabbath's "Cornucopia" - I think that might give a band like Led Zeppelin a hard time, it's probably more complex than any song they ever played. There must be about seven different parts to the song, replete with changes in metre and key. And I don't really see them playing "SWLABR", mostly because PAGE CANNOT PLAY AS WELL AS CLAPTON.

What exactly about Swlabr do you think is unplayable for Page? Clapton is definately the better guitarist, but I don't think Swlabr is too much for Page.

I saw skilled musicians get killed on songs like "Over the hills and far away", because they're not used to off-beat playing, just playing straight hard rock and metal.

Steve Stevens had a hard time doing some MJ song, don't remember which rn. That dude puts most guitarists to shame.

That's why I mean that Clapton wouldn't fit even if he is the more skilled player(not that he wouldn't be able to play Over the hills). Some songs don't fit his style. Same for Page and Cream, but I think Swlabr is one of the ones closer in style to what Zeppelin does no matter the time changes.

Sabbath is a whole different story. Iommi and Butler build songs on changes. Leaving the structure and riffs to Iommi and the melody mainly to Butler. That's a concept Zeppelin really never did. Even on songs Jones went full berserk the guitar was still leading.
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Old 11-25-2018, 05:31 PM   #67
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Default Re: Rank these bands in order of combined instrumental and songwriting skill

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What exactly about Swlabr do you think is unplayable for Page? Clapton is definately the better guitarist, but I don't think Swlabr is too much for Page.

I saw skilled musicians get killed on songs like "Over the hills and far away", because they're not used to off-beat playing, just playing straight hard rock and metal.

Steve Stevens had a hard time doing some MJ song, don't remember which rn. That dude puts most guitarists to shame.

That's why I mean that Clapton wouldn't fit even if he is the more skilled player(not that he wouldn't be able to play Over the hills). Some songs don't fit his style. Same for Page and Cream, but I think Swlabr is one of the ones closer in style to what Zeppelin does no matter the time changes.

Sabbath is a whole different story. Iommi and Butler build songs on changes. Leaving the structure and riffs to Iommi and the melody mainly to Butler. That's a concept Zeppelin really never did. Even on songs Jones went full berserk the guitar was still leading.

The part right immediately leading into the solo - I don't think Page could nail that. The closest thing is part of the solo in Over the Hills and Far Away, and that sounds a little awkward compared with the fluidity/speed Clapton puts in on SWLABR.
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Old 11-25-2018, 05:39 PM   #68
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Default Re: Rank these bands in order of combined instrumental and songwriting skill

"Rank these Bands, and oh, here's some fancy words too:"
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