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Old 10-13-2018, 08:22 PM   #271
Loco 50
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverness



Kblaze and I have told you exactly what these people are saying. Listen to what they are saying. They do not want to get off gov't aid because it is not worth it to them.

I have tried with many friends and family over the years, even handed out $40k+ to family members to help "kick-start" their life for their goals, gave them advice, and was willing to give them help 24/7, but they all end up back on gov't aid without any school/work. Why? Because the option of gov't aid was much easier and that's the option they took.

How did you think I was implying that they are happier or healthier than me right now? Definitely not what I think.
I am reading, and listening, and comprehending. Your world view and experiences are different than mine and we view people differently because of it. That's fine. I'm sorry things didn't work out for your family. I'm not trying to change your views. I just disagree with them.
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:16 PM   #272
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

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Originally Posted by Loco 50
Ideally, shrinking. Realistically, dealing with the shit hand we've currently got, expanding. This country needs profound help that extends into medical care.

Your second paragraph doesn't present me with any new information.

Of course those qualities should come from a parental figure, but they should also be coming from the community as a whole which includes government. The difference between a good leader and a bad leader is the good leader will understand when something has been lost, not dwell on it needlessly, and figure out how to not only overcome the situation, but correct it; whereas a shit leader will endlessly complain about "what should have been done" "how things should have gone", point fingers of blame and divide people up into the "good" citizens (that agree with me and live by my standards) and the "bad" citizens (that live another way).

I'm here to deal with problems and make the best of the situation we've got. Not to point at people and say, "ya f'd up here, and here, and here, so screw you; You're not worthy of my help."

A helping hand never hurt anyone, and you won't convince me otherwise. Ever. So no point in even attempting that conversation.

I gave a family member $2,000 to help pay for school related expenses and transportation. He bought a car and almost died the day he bought it by drinking alcohol and driving off a cliff (3rd DUI). He admitted later that he was reckless with the helping hand because he didn't earn it.

We've got to stop believing that giving things to people never hurts them. People don't need gov't aid or Section 8 as much as they need opportunity. Giving people a "helping hand" via gov't aid can hurt, keep groups of people in poverty, and take away from that opportunity.

I don't agree with everything in this video, but I think you would like it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlOJ4e51ixU

"For example, he speaks with American couple Corrigan and Shelly Clay, who came to Haiti looking to adopt. When they discovered that local orphanages were actually encouraging poor mothers to give up their children, rather than providing homes for those without parents, they hatched an entirely different plan."
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Old 10-14-2018, 08:45 PM   #273
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
There are untold BILLIONS in waste be it leftist social programs or right wing military pandering and waste.

As has been made clear....taking in less money wouldnt be a problem...if we didnt light so many hundreds of billions on fire for no good reason.

I think we should all be able to step out of our anecdotal experiences for a second and think about some of the wider implications of the ideas we are proposing. You see corruption and fraud all around you, but for every person you know who is gaming the system, there are several times more country-wide who are suffering from a disability, working their way through school, taking care of children after leaving an abusive relationship, etc... etc... and using the program within its proper boundaries and requirements. I don't want to get into the homes I've been in, the people I've talked to and how destitute their lives were at the moments our paths crossed. Anecdotes are nice, but they're myopic. The fact of the matter is that when we take a sledgehammer to programs that people rely on... people who aren't fraudulent and lazy, who aren't simply looking to sit back while the government takes care of them... those people tend to get hurt... and it's never good for our economy.

We want to stop fraud... let's do that. But we don't need to get rid of capital gains to do it.
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Old 10-15-2018, 05:46 AM   #274
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

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I think we should all be able to step out of our anecdotal experiences for a second and think about some of the wider implications of the ideas we are proposing.

While it would no doubt be nice for you to sidestep the thing I presented I did it for a reason. Being told factually incorrect things about these people. I read that people arent lazy. Im told they arent doing anything punishable. People have said on here that people dont want to be on assistance and its just flat out unture in million and millions of cases.


Quote:
You see corruption and fraud all around you, but for every person you know who is gaming the system, there are several times more country-wide who are suffering from a disability, working their way through school, taking care of children after leaving an abusive relationship, etc... etc... and using the program within its proper boundaries and requirements. I don't want to get into the homes I've been in, the people I've talked to and how destitute their lives were at the moments our paths crossed. Anecdotes are nice, but they're myopic.

You have no idea what the rate is of needers to wanters. None. There is no way at all to track it. Fact is ive met few people with roof over their head who was any poorer than I came up....and my mom didnt get on food stamps on general principle. You learn the difference between need and want when the option isnt there. THe stats cant account for anything close to all the fraud that goes on. They release nonsense about reduced numbers and all the people who got off. But you read the details that doesnt count people who got kicked off then simply reapplied for emergency food stamps which as I showed you....cant be done over and over and over. Thats how people who know they wont qualify get on them for months at a time before they get forcibly removed.....for a little while. It also doesnt account for people who have 3 family members on them in one home each claiming a kid or two while doing off the books work. They end up with 1200-1500 a month and have a fridge full of food and enough left to sell the other stamps. For example....woman I know who is a medical assistant...makes solid money. Lives with her hair dresser sister who has no taxed income....but 2 kids. Far as the government knows shes jobless and with the two kids? Getting heavy assistance. And their mom works part time answering phones at a church....for cash. No verifiable income. 2 kids. All told? 4 kids and 3 adults in one family all the adults working but only one with income the government can see. And the one who does hair makes more than the other two combined. She makes like 200 a day retwisting dreads. She makes in the area of 40-50K a year straight cash claiming to be unemployed....because how would you prove it?

That is someone the system could never call a fraud because they would have no way of knowing she was employed all along. They count fraud numbers in actual convictions. IVe known 100+ frauds and not one to actually get arrested. I shows you people admitting to doing it over and over and over.

Your "Several times more" claim has no real basis in the real world and flies in the fact of both my experience and common sense.

Hell a great many people lie about being disabled. Thats why actual disabled people go through hell to get benefits. The frauds make the government so careful. I have multiple cousins on disability. Not a one of them actually cant work. My cousin Emma(another food stamp and section 8 addict ive never known to have a job)....disability for arthritis. Been on it since the early 90s at least. She was already not working when I moved to the south. And she was better off than several of her sisters. Same family with the epic cookouts I spoke on. Feel free to tell me that my personal experience doesnt matter....but fact is ive seen enough to know you cant trust the stats on any of this. Youre smart enough to know that.

There are too many people to track to keep up with the bullshitters. They cant even track down all the several million 110+ year olds still on social security when they know there arent even 1000 of those people on the planet. They dont have the resources to verify that a 119 year old man shouldnt be getting checks....but im to believe they know how many people on assistance are just lazy? They cant confirm living or dead when they have death certificates.



Quote:
The fact of the matter is that when we take a sledgehammer to programs that people rely on... people who aren't fraudulent and lazy, who aren't simply looking to sit back while the government takes care of them... those people tend to get hurt... and it's never good for our economy.


Did I say to get rid of any program? I said a rebuild. I am amazed at your constant refusal to even address problems that keep getting worse out of a fear of upsetting a status quo nobody is even happy with. Sure we dont need more money because the problem lies in spending....100% of us agree....but for the love of god dont explore letting citizens keep more of their money and actually reduce the spending. 100% of us agree billions go to frauds. But lets not even investigate ways to rebuild the system to exclude them. Whats the point of knowing their are problems if you are afraid to do the hard work of fixing them? Someone has to work on these things and stop wringing their hands and pretending things are great.

They arent great. We all know it. But knowing isnt enough.


Quote:
We want to stop fraud... let's do that. But we don't need to get rid of capital gains to do it.

Who said that does it? It does however entirely pay for it if you could do it. But of course you can never totally remove fraud. But shit man...you can try.

We are gonna keep "I know its a problem but...." till the end of time because so few have the political courage to tell the ****ing truth.

We are getting as bad as the other side. Almost at least. We dont have so much of the super christian but only when its convenient hypocrisy. We have a different slightly less offensive(to me) kind.
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:18 AM   #275
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

We get so concerned with the appearance of unfairness and not supporting the little guy....we let frauds take money that could do more for the people who actually need it.

If we rebuilt the system to make someone ineligible for 2-3 years if they are caught making unreported income in addition to a fine with repeaters getting put on at least probation....made people account for household members they dont list by cross referencing addresses...make emergency stamps limited and not let you just claim extreme poverty to get them as many times as you need? Do more inspections on section 8 people to see who actually lives in these houses. Make able bodied adults benefits reduce by say 5% every month to make them gradually contribute more themselves as time goes on? Theres lots of things you can do to weed these people out. The "Till the day I die" people like the one I posted.

You could rebuild a number of social programs, military waste, freeze budgets in departments for say....5 year periods to allow them to stop wasting things for the benefit of not getting cuts next year? Really evaluate what they NEED and not just what they want. Get rid of bureaus with 5-6 others having jurisdiction. Like organized crime drug enforcement when you already have the DEA and FBI on things. You could come to a compromise with corporations stashing billions(trillions really) overseas. Maybe do a one time amnesty to let them bring the money back at a greatly reduced tax rate then figure out what rate would be acceptable to keep the money here to begin with. Of what use is standing on principle that just loses all access to the money in the real world? Take a smaller cut of trillions you wouldnt get to touch at all. We can meet in the middle and save enough money to cut spending....cut waste....and do MORE for actual needers.

Im in favor of more money and resources given to real disabled people. To people who lost work in legit layoffs. To people impacted by natural disasters insurance wont make whole. To orphans, single parents who hold down work and try to keep it together, and anyone who helps these people. Give more money to charities that provide job training. Lets get a network of government funded trade schools that people actually have easy access to. Id be down for a vast network of government paid daycare for newborns up to 5 years old for anyone with a job that conflicts with the needs of the child. Let these people work. Let them earn their own money. Let the kids get medical care and a head start with small savings accounts even.

We dont need to take a sledge hammer to people. We need to stop being morons and put the help where it does the most good.
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:20 AM   #276
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

We Shud just started euthanizing people. It's like u got one year to make some money for yourself and if you can't we're gonna euthanize you and your whole family. Think of all the money we'd save. Haha.

If you know fraudulent people turn them in. **** your family. It's like harboring terrorists.

The only thing that I dislike is that people who are getting free stuff can vote to get more free stuff.

In general, people in need are not getting what they need and jack asses are. That's what happens in any system, some people know how to game it and others don't. Some people prol don't have the energy to go thru the process.

But really how do you even get to the point where you can't feed your family. Why have a family then. There is enough money out there. Some people are incapable of working, I believe, but then you gotta say OK I'm incapable of working but I should not be having kids because I can't support them.

The irs goes in hard on people. I'd report them. **** em. What are they gonna do come after you? If you know they are doing it how is that different than knowing someone is abusing a child or plotting terrorism. You said yourself they are taking money while other people probably are starving.

I personally don't know anyone gaming the system haha. I know it happens but I think a lot of it is based on your experience. I dunno if I'd turn someone in or not, but I would not be like I know they're doing it and it sucks then not turn them in.

-Smak
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:01 AM   #277
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverness
1. I like free markets, but you cannot have open borders with a transfer/welfare state, especially in a country that provides many incentives for low-skilled immigrants.

2.



There is shit I can do about it. I can voluntarily choose not to buy it. You say you are for a system where transactions are voluntary, but then you shit all over voluntary transactions, calling them idiotic, wasteful, and crazy.

For example, it's not idiotic for someone to spend $50 on a t-shirt if they bought it voluntarily. So what if the raw materials of the shirt can be purchased for $1; that business may not even be making a profit after they've spent money on everything else it costs to sell that shirt (advertising, shipping, payroll taxes, regulatory obligations, more taxes, accountants, cost of renting the building, etc). Maybe you and I wouldn't buy it, but it means it was worth it to someone if they voluntarily bought it.

1. You can’t have a free market without open borders and a free market of labor. If you are regulating the immigration of people you are essentially controlling the labor market and the market is no longer free. Don’t be a big government statist now.

2. Yeah I think we can judge people’s purchases. Lol. Isn’t that what this thread has kinda led too.? I don’t care if the transaction is voluntary if you are getting ripped off someone has the right to say you are an idiot, crazy, and wasteful. Don’t be like some SJW.
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:01 PM   #278
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverness
I watched the entire video from the Atlantic. Even if a handful of people's opinions are indicative of how others felt after the tax changes, the video isn't educational at all. Hawker mentioned revenues actually increased after the "tax cuts" yet it isn't addressed... sounds more like the problem is bad existing policies were left in place, poor decision making, inefficient/corrupt people in charge of the money, and a growing population dependent on gov't

Let's be clear... we're not talking about a handful of opinions. Kansas voters voted out many of the lawmakers who voted in favor of the tax cuts, and their new legislature, led by Republicans, increased taxes. Are you honestly of the mind that this took place due to "a handful of people's opinions?"

Are we talking about tax revenues in Kansas? Tax revenues in Kansas plummeted. If we are talking about tax revenues for the US since the recent tax cut, I've addressed that and I'll address it again. Though revenues are expected to increase (by 1% in 2018), tax revenues generally increase due to wage increases (especially by top earners), increases in the working population, and increased profits from businesses, even during mild recessions. However, the revenue increase has slowed. In the immediate years prior, where there was no change in tax policy, we saw steeper revenue increases year over year. Also, the tax revenue increase of 1% was less than inflation. If you were to get a 1% pay raise year over year, but your rent, utilities, the cost of gas, health insurance, the cost of groceries, your gym membership, etc... increased by 2.3%, a 1% increase would be problematic.

You've defaulted to the "sounds more like" argument. Are we talking about Kansas, and are you speaking from a knowledgeable position, or are you forwarding an idea that fits the narrative you prefer? That narrative doesn't fit what happened in Kansas. As I mentioned, Kansas cut a lot, including a whole day of school in a few districts. Republicans in the state were eventually unable to deny the folly of the tax cuts even as they tried to cut every bit of spending they could find. Moreover, Kansas' economic growth underperformed in comparison to its neighboring states and the US as a whole. It was a spectacular failure and a cautionary tale in regards to ill-conceived tax cuts.

Quote:
edit: unlike The Atlantic video, this one is pretty educational: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FszQelEQ2KY what do you think of Larry Elder and how incentives for women to marry the gov't has caused a surge in babies born out of wedlock?

I agree that we have a rampant problem with fatherlessness in our society, but it is important to note that there has been a surge in children born out of wedlock to individuals of all income levels. Let's also remember that having a child out of wedlock when young will likely lead to a much more difficult economic paradigm for that young person than those who wait: the premature end in educational achievement, limited job options, cost of childcare, cost of healthcare, ect... Children are expensive, and when someone who hasn't achieved a decent measure of economic security has a child, that child will place them in a much more dire economic position. More people fall into poverty because they have a child than those that are poor and have a child because they are looking for more government assistance. Lastly, having a child causes most US taxpayers to become a little more reliant on the government. Child tax credits and other tax deductions are available to almost all parents... married and unmarried.

None of this provides a good argument for getting rid of capital gains taxes.
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:05 PM   #279
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverness
they are the same people Kblaze described. tens of thousands spent on smoking, drinking, lotto tickets, sugar drinks, candy, weed, ... how many "struggling by no fault of their own" have smart phones and flat screen TVs? lol

About 25% of people on Section 8 are disabled in the United States. There are pretty stringent requirements, including corroborative medical records, for people to access Section 8 due to disability. What % of the people you grew up around were disabled?
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:45 PM   #280
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

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Originally Posted by Hawker
They aren't oil subsidies bro. They just keep more of the money they make unless you think the government owns what we produce which would make us slaves. They are not public expenditures like military and social security are so you're wrong on that issue. Don't care what the heritage foundation says.

I just want to address this again...

Quote:
A subsidy is a benefit given to an individual, business or institution, usually by the government. It is usually in the form of a cash payment or a tax reduction. The subsidy is typically given to remove some type of burden, and it is often considered to be in the overall interest of the public, given to promote a social good or an economic policy.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/subsidy.asp

Quote:
Government can create the same outcome through selective tax breaks as through cash payment. For example, suppose a government sends monetary assistance that reimburses 15% of all health expenditures to a group that is paying 15% income tax. Exactly the same subsidy is achieved by giving a health tax deduction. Tax subsidies are also known as tax expenditures. Tax subsidies are one of the main explanations for why the American tax code is so complicated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy

Quote:
Tax subsidies are the result of selective tax legislation that benefits particular groups of people or industries in the economy.
https://www.earthtrack.net/subsidies.../tax-subsidies

Quote:
The federal government subsidizes health insurance for most Americans through a variety of programs and tax provisions.
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/53826

Can we all agree that this horse is dead?

Last edited by MaxFly : 10-15-2018 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 10-15-2018, 07:04 PM   #281
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DON'T FK WITH THE GOAT POTUS


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Old 10-15-2018, 10:28 PM   #282
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

So much for draining the swamp. The swamp is full effect. Meanwhile the majority of Americans pay our taxes like decent law abiding citizens. They (Republicans) think capital gains taxes are bad. That’s when a person is so rich they can sit on their ass and make money off the returns of their investments. The middle class and poor don’t have that luxury. They should raise capital gains taxes. But since we live in such corrupted times, they’ll get rid of em. Everything is corrupted. Private interest has replaced public good in our politics. Everything is for the interest corporation in this country. Government merged with corporation. No distinction between public good and private interest. Crazy. For example, trumps first pick for Sec of State was the former head of Exxon Mobil. Or how about a coal industry lobbyist running the Environmental Protection Agency? Ah yes. Just a couple examples. But look for the corporate shareholders to continue to receive the biggest tax breaks and subsidies in the coming decades. Remember when they passed that tax cut last year that will have the deficit saddled on the back of the poorest Americans so that companies like Apple and Walmart could be rewarded for sending jobs overseas? When the Goldman Sachs is looting the Treasury, when the Koch Bros and their network of far right corporate libertarians are running every branch of govt, it’s only going to get worse. The corruption of the people. Oligarchical constitution. Politics is dead. Somewhere Aristotle is weeping.

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Old Yesterday, 01:06 AM   #283
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norcaliblunt
1. You canít have a free market without open borders and a free market of labor. If you are regulating the immigration of people you are essentially controlling the labor market and the market is no longer free. Donít be a big government statist now.

2. Yeah I think we can judge peopleís purchases. Lol. Isnít that what this thread has kinda led too.? I donít care if the transaction is voluntary if you are getting ripped off someone has the right to say you are an idiot, crazy, and wasteful. Donít be like some SJW.

1. I'm calling for smaller gov't. $20 trillion in debt is too high imo. Do you agree or disagree? You immediately jump to extremist positions like open borders, but even good ideas can be bad ones depending on circumstances.

2. You said the whole capitalist system is inefficient and wasteful.

[IMG]Idk what would be better but the whole capitalist system is inefficient and wasteful bruh.[/IMG]

I'm arguing that capitalism is efficient and not wasteful. I'm arguing that it is one of the greatest ideas to ever happen to mankind, has done absolute wonders for this world, and has lifted billions out of poverty.

So far your argument for "the whole capitalist system is inefficient and wasteful" is that I personally spend hundreds of dollars on things that cost 2 dollars to make. Weak.
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Old Yesterday, 01:48 AM   #284
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxFly
Let's be clear... we're not talking about a handful of opinions. Kansas voters voted out many of the lawmakers who voted in favor of the tax cuts, and their new legislature, led by Republicans, increased taxes. Are you honestly of the mind that this took place due to "a handful of people's opinions?"

Are we talking about tax revenues in Kansas? Tax revenues in Kansas plummeted. If we are talking about tax revenues for the US since the recent tax cut, I've addressed that and I'll address it again. Though revenues are expected to increase (by 1% in 2018), tax revenues generally increase due to wage increases (especially by top earners), increases in the working population, and increased profits from businesses, even during mild recessions. However, the revenue increase has slowed. In the immediate years prior, where there was no change in tax policy, we saw steeper revenue increases year over year. Also, the tax revenue increase of 1% was less than inflation. If you were to get a 1% pay raise year over year, but your rent, utilities, the cost of gas, health insurance, the cost of groceries, your gym membership, etc... increased by 2.3%, a 1% increase would be problematic.

You've defaulted to the "sounds more like" argument. Are we talking about Kansas, and are you speaking from a knowledgeable position, or are you forwarding an idea that fits the narrative you prefer? That narrative doesn't fit what happened in Kansas. As I mentioned, Kansas cut a lot, including a whole day of school in a few districts. Republicans in the state were eventually unable to deny the folly of the tax cuts even as they tried to cut every bit of spending they could find. Moreover, Kansas' economic growth underperformed in comparison to its neighboring states and the US as a whole. It was a spectacular failure and a cautionary tale in regards to ill-conceived tax cuts.



I agree that we have a rampant problem with fatherlessness in our society, but it is important to note that there has been a surge in children born out of wedlock to individuals of all income levels. Let's also remember that having a child out of wedlock when young will likely lead to a much more difficult economic paradigm for that young person than those who wait: the premature end in educational achievement, limited job options, cost of childcare, cost of healthcare, ect... Children are expensive, and when someone who hasn't achieved a decent measure of economic security has a child, that child will place them in a much more dire economic position. More people fall into poverty because they have a child than those that are poor and have a child because they are looking for more government assistance. Lastly, having a child causes most US taxpayers to become a little more reliant on the government. Child tax credits and other tax deductions are available to almost all parents... married and unmarried.

None of this provides a good argument for getting rid of capital gains taxes.

North Carolina cut taxes and ended up with a $447m surplus in 2015. It's not always about "cutting taxes is bad because Kansas."

One of the biggest problems with Kansas' tax plan was that it continued wasteful spending, created giant loopholes, and narrowed the tax base, which is the exact OPPOSITE of the type of tax plan I presented before
https://taxfoundation.org/economic-e...x-reform-plan/


Sure, there are other factors to fatherlessness, but you continue to ignore the massive damage that is caused by government. Instead you say things like, "well there are people out there struggling by no fault of their own"

Quote:
but for every person you know who is gaming the system, there are several times more country-wide who are suffering from a disability, working their way through school, taking care of children after leaving an abusive relationship, etc... etc...

2 of 3 school lunches are paid for by gov't. Breakfast numbers are worse. Are there really that many parents, by no fault of their own, cannot feed their child without gov't support? No, they are taking advantage of gov't programs.And the worst part is these gov't programs only expand. Long lasting damage. Try cutting Medicare back 5% and you'll never make it through the Midterms. You get re-elected by giving people crap, not by cutting.

And Several times more?

You think several times more, we think several times less are "in need"

You think gov't programs are effective, but I think they are overall ineffective, inefficient, and cause long term harm.

You think these War On Poverty initiatives are helping, I think they are causing long-term harm, not only to the people on them for years and years, but also to the taxpayers, as they narrow the tax base and increase the amount taxed per taxpayer to pay for them.

If you want "evidence" then look at how many people are on gov't programs since 1970. If the mission is to decrease the amount of people who need a gov't handout, then the mission has massively failed.
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Old Yesterday, 05:20 AM   #285
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Default Re: Trump Helped His Parents Evade Taxes...

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None of this provides a good argument for getting rid of capital gains taxes.

The problem was you taking issue with the idea that we didnt need the money and questioning how spending cuts would offset cap gains and estate taxes losses. Nobody came in here talking about cutting cap gains by cutting food stamps and such. You asked for specifics. I gave specific places we waste billions from the priorities of both sides of the aisle. And I am factually correct. But you...just like the other side you find unreasonable? Seem to think the cuts should be found on the other end of the spectrum.

Fact is republicans are hooked on defense spending as a front for being tough and pro america and to keep jobs in their districts. Another fact....democrats are hooked on entitlements and giveaways even knowing tens of billions are fraud in order to appear caring even though fixing the programs would allow us to do MORE for people actually in need.

Its just bullshit from both ends. Bottom line though?

We do not need as much money as we take in. We need to spend less money. Because of that I dont need to justify letting citizens keep their own money. I dont see you justifying why we need to keep taking it when you know we waste more than enough to cut it. You just cant settle on where to cut the spending. Not needing the money isnt even in question. Every person walking the country knows we waste money.

It isnt about where to give it back. You could cut it across the lines. But only cutting it on the middle class and rich would make a difference. We simply do not need to take as much of peoples money as we take. Middle or upper....we dont need these peoples money. We need to cure ourselves of the addiction to spending every drop we get...and more. It isnt needed. And thats what this is about even though you keep trying to spin it back to who exactly gets money back. Cap gains...estate...income....sales....whatever. Top to bottom.

America is wasting these peoples money. Just so happens the rich give the most to be wasted and have the hardest to justify places its taken from because they are an easy target to make the bad guy. Taking a chunk of a persons money from their children because they died is just flat out wrong. Luckily we dont care about the rich being wronged. You can find more ways to nickel and dime the rich because people are embarrassed to fully speak out on it because its a bad look.

Taking money from the estate a guy worked his whole life to leave his little girl who was the reason he went so hard to build it is a bad look. But you can **** the rich. Tax their "unrealized cap gains" as the IRS calls it. Tax it as they establish it. Tax it for the right to give it to their children. Tax it when the children actually liquidate it.

Get every drop you can. And its easy....because jealous people dont have the ability to see past self interest. Nobody is upset someone doing better than them gets taken down a notch. Being decent is only for people similar to and below us. You stand above? **** whats right.
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