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Old 03-20-2018, 11:22 AM   #61
Manny98
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBonner
Jordan wasnít capable of winning without Pippen. Meanwhile Lebron was able to win without wade and kyrie
182-228 in the regular season and 1-9 in the playoffs is Jordan without Pippen. Thats a big enough sample size to come to a conclusion that Jordan was nowhere near as impactful as Lebron and Pippen was probably the most important player on those Bulls teams.
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Old 03-20-2018, 11:28 AM   #62
AirBonner
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny98
182-228 in the regular season and 1-9 in the playoffs is Jordan without Pippen. Thats a big enough sample size to come to a conclusion that Jordan was nowhere near as impactful as Lebron and Pippen was probably the most important player on those Bulls teams.
True. Jordan was mostly successful due to circumstance. When people consider mookie blaylock tough competition than you know it is a watered down league. Nice avatar btw
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Old 03-20-2018, 11:38 AM   #63
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

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Originally Posted by 3ball
MJ lost to the defending champion Celtics in the 1st round, whereas Lebron's 66-win, 1 seed lost to the shit Magic in 09'.. Then his superteam lost to the shit Mavs in 11'

Oh, and in 09', his loss to the Magic occurred because the Cavs' offense was designed to let lebron hold the ball for entire shot clocks.. so he got his gaudy stats while the team had shit teamwork.. He sacrificed teamwork for stats, the definition of empty stats.. But he does this in every Finals so its standard for him.. Le empty stats
.
Except for the fact that LeBron was the best player that postseason from any team and hi teammates were missing wide open shots.

You would know that if you weren't a brain dead moron.
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Old 03-20-2018, 11:44 AM   #64
FireDavidKahn
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

A good FO.

That's it.
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Old 03-20-2018, 04:06 PM   #65
3ball
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

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Originally Posted by aj1987
Except for the fact that LeBron was the best player that postseason from any team and hi teammates were missing wide open shots.

You would know that if you weren't a brain dead moron.
He was the best player because he sacrificed teamwork to get stats?

That makes no sense

Lebron sacrificed teamwork for stats, so his favored 1 seed lost

Thats what he always does, so he always needs more "help" to offset the lack of teamwork
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Old 03-20-2018, 04:52 PM   #66
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

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Originally Posted by FireDavidKahn

A good FO.

That's it

Or having MJ on your team instead of lebron

The results speak for themselves

It turns out there were actual REASONS why Lebron chooses to team-hop, whereas MJ didn't have to..

And there's reasons why MJ always got the most out of his team and never underachieved, whereas lebron has lost several times as the favorite and frequently HASN'T gotten the most out of his team - heck, even his Heat teams should've been all-time great instead of 2/4

Ultimately, a star's playing style and leadership affects teamwork and teammate performance, and this impacts whether a team can develop organically more than anything else.. Krause made the no-brainer move to draft MJ. That doesnt make him "good" or better than any other GM.. Most of krause's other picks didn't work out or were standard.. But he got lucky with MJ, and the rest played itself.. MJ made krause's job easier by being so good krause didnt need to search for a dominant post player like mchale, parish, kareem or shaq/pau that bird/magic/kobe needed for all their rings.

Its funny because people cite giys like paxson, kerr and longley part of MJ's stacked roster when they were ordinary single-digit role players that every team has.. Pippen was the only non-role player other than jordan
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Old 03-20-2018, 05:09 PM   #67
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Itís rare to me that the correct negative labels are put on people. People on here called Steve Francis a chucker when at times he was shooting as little as somebody like Jason Kidd. What he was is a ball hog. Meanwhile Baron Davis got a lot of assists but at times he was absolutely a chucker.

Mike to me was something else. He came in after Magic and Bird made passing the thing to do and then Isiah got a couple more also as a playmaker even though a lot of fans who didnít watch him think he was a score 1st point.

And then comes Mike taking 35 or 40 shots and losing. It was the natural argument to make against him. And as Iíve shown it wasnít just fans. Pat Riley wasnít the only coach to talk about how Jordan shouldnít be scoring so much if he wants to win. I heard Hubie Brown and others talk about Jordanís teammates being a lot better than he let them show.

One of the problems here is that people act like Jordan wasnít well-established and deep into his career when he started winning. Jordan was absolutely in his prime and at his best and losing. Nobody who ever played basketball is better than Jordan was by 1989. He was certainly better then than he was winning that second three peat.

So much of the story is told from the 90s point of view as if he wasnít probably the GOAT for years already.

Late 80s Jordan was absolutely completely Un****wittable. He was faster, better, and wanted it more than anyone. That was my Jordan. The rest of the sports world was amazed by him but mostly hating in comparison to the Magicís and Birds. I was in the group the old heads acted like he didnít know basketball because we thought Jordan was the best and not the so-called team players.

My uncleís friend Clyde Mayes who Iíve mentioned before was in the NBA in the late 70s and then played in Europe and I still talk to from time to time? He didnít **** with Jordan at all. We were considered the shallow dumb kids. I was always team MJ. When I come south my cousins repped Dominique and thought he was the best in the NBA.

And a lot of people would lump Jordan in with him as just a flashy scorer who didnít have the substance of a bird or magic because they were team players.

Itís just weird to me to come up hearing so many segments of the sports world get on Jordan for not being a team player but 30 years later hear that heís better than someone else because heís a team player. Itís like where were you mother****ers when I was in Augusta in 1989 arguing that Jordan wasnít Dominique?

Whatever the reason was that people thought Jordan was great it was never his blending into teams and not being selfish or a ball hog. People were still saying that when he was winning rings. When you see people talk about how he mellowed and started to give the ball up itís obvious they mean in relation to the time when he did not.

Jordans peak was late 80s to 1993. For at least half that time he was absolutely considered a ball hog. The reputation started going away as Phil forced him into the triangle but it never fullly faded. We just choose to forget it because haters tend to act like they never said anything when rings start piling up.

Once everyone loves you? Everybody always loved you. But it just isnít true. I wish I could pull up half the shit I heard when I was defending Mike back in th day. Make a lot of people look stupid just like the old newsgroup posts do now.

A lot of people get off the hook for being stupid on the subject of Jordan because nobody can prove the shit they used to say.

Well said! It's funny how people TOTALLY DISREGARD the talent MJ had to play with. For example, the best two scorers MJ EVER PLAYED with were Orlando Woolridge and Scottie Pippen! NEITHER of those two were alpha dog level scorers. So MJ early in his career HAD to force up shit for his teams to win games. As SOON as Pip became an All Star, the rings came FAST AS HELL! Pip became an All Star in 1990, the Bulls won their first chip in '91!

And the Triangle was a great system for MJ to trust his teammates more. But let's face it, early in MJ's run he HAD to be very aggressive with his FGA's! Doc, Bird, and Magic ALL had casts around ready to win rings MUCH SOONER than MJ! And played on franchises used to winning rings or being in the hunt ALL THE TIME! MJ LITERALLY put the Bulls on the map as a championship MT. Rushmore type NBA Franchise! So in my book, it was MORE ABOUT the Bulls getting the team around to win. And FROM THERE, MJ had to learn to trust them ENOUGH to win. Because ONCE AGAIN, he didn't have a Kareem, Worthy, McHale, Moses, Andrew Toney, etc. around him. Other guys who had alpha dog scoring ability!

Anybody WHO KNOWS the game knew MJ was the total package HIS ROOKIE YEAR in the NBA! And from there refined his game and got better. The only SLIGHT KNOCK was not trusting his teammates AT TIMES once they improved the roster ENOUGH to contend. And that process didn't last long even.
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Old 03-20-2018, 09:11 PM   #68
3ball
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBonner

Jordan wasnít capable of winning without Pippen. Meanwhile Lebron was able to win without wade and kyrie

By "win", you must mean him beating the 53-win Pistons and their 7th ranked defense with 2 all stars

MJ beat a better team before getting an all-star sidekick like kyrie or wade - the 57-win Cavs and their 2nd ranked defense with 3 all stars plus ron harper and hot rod

So mj beat better teams before getting all-star help than lebron.. And look how much better mj and his teams fared against champions before getting all star help - he broke records against the celtics and took the bad boys to the limit, whereas lebron shot 35% against both 07' spurs and 08' celtics.

So lebron didnt win shit without wade and kyrie, except beat lesser teams than mj before he got all-star help, and get owned by champs far worse than jordan
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