If people are really born gay..

[Hoodlum Science]

amen. it amazes and confuses me that so many of the religious conservatives surrounding me in the midwest perform the mental gymnastics required in order to support laws against gay marriage.

people that call themselves christians have been seen protesting a lot of things, but has anybody ever witnessed a christian protesting against divorce lawyers? if anybody has actually read a bible, divorce is a lot worse than homosexuality. to hear these people say things like gay people threaten the sanctity of marriage while ~50% of marriages result in divorce is mind bogglingly hypocritical. when was the last time a church turned down a wedding because one of the parties involved was previously divorced?

also, i thought conservatives wanted the government to get the hell out of their lives. allowing uncle sam to deny the rights of two consenting adults or tell them that they are not allowed to love each other is the opposite of small government.

"Divorce is a lot worse than marriage"

Bible: "man who lay with man, shall surely die" (commonly argued both physically and spiritually) ... yet, you say divorce is described as much worse in the Bible. How exactly is "surely dying" a lot worse than what the Bible says about divorce.

Maybe you know something we don't. Please enlighten us, oh knowledgeable one.

[Nanners]

"Divorce is a lot worse than marriage"

um wat? where did i say that?

i said that according to the bible, divorce is worse than homosexuality. i have had more exposure than i would have liked to the bible during my life, and i know that while everything that the bible has to say about homosexuality is just that one verse of leviticus that you quoted, there are countless bible verses devoted to divorce.

in light of the fact that you call yourself a christian, you should know this stuff josh.

Romans 7:2-3

For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then if, while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man.

Matthew 19:6

"Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Matthew 5:31-32

"And it was said, 'Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Luke 16:18

"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

from a religious perspective, claiming that allowing gays to get married harms the sanctity of marriage is laughably absurd. when was the last time you saw a christian protesting over the fact that people are working on the sabbath? these people are going to quote a passage of leviticus to condemn gay people and then go eat dinner at red lobster.

Leviticus 11:10 ESV / 71 helpful votes

But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you.

edit: sorry for all the edits, cleaning up my garbled nonsense. i shouldnt be awake right now.

[Hoodlum Science]

um wat? where did i say that?

i said that according to the bible, divorce is worse than homosexuality. everything that the bible has to say about homosexuality is pretty much just that one verse of leviticus that you quoted, but there are countless bible verses devoted to divorce.

in light of the fact that you call yourself a christian, you should know this stuff josh.

Right. I suppose your argument is divorce/marriage is mentioned more often in the Bible, so therefore divorce is "a lot" worse than homosexuality. Whatever happened to quality > quantity?

Marriage/divorce is mentioned more often in the Bible because it's much more common than homosexuality. I think however it's quite obvious which sinful nature God is more opposed to, based off texts.

Again, show me scripture where the Bible says something that would be "a lot" worse than what I have already quoted.

[Nanners]

Right. I suppose your argument is divorce/marriage is mentioned more often in the Bible, so therefore divorce is "a lot" worse than homosexuality. Whatever happened to quality > quantity?

Marriage/divorce is mentioned more often in the Bible because it's much more common than homosexuality. I think however it's quite obvious which sinful nature God is more opposed to, based off texts.

Again, show me scripture where the Bible says something that would be "a lot" worse than what I have already quoted.

since when is leviticus considered quality? go protest a red lobster.

i dont think it is "quite obvious which sinful nature god is more opposed to based off the texts". adultery or abomination... according to the texts they are both bad, but there are 10 passages in the bible about adultery for every 1 about homos.

[Hoodlum Science]

since when is leviticus considered quality? go protest a red lobster.

i dont think it is "quite obvious which sinful nature god is more opposed to based off the texts". adultery or abomination... according to the texts they are both bad, but there are 10 passages in the bible about adultery for every 1 about homos.

You're reiterating points I've already made clear. Again, show me something I can read that outweighs "if man lay with man, he shall surely die" - and without some weak ass "oh, that came from Leviticus!" defense. Really dude? That's your argument? I'll have to be sure to keep that in mind next time someone quotes something you stated.

[Nanners]

You're reiterating points I've already made clear. Again, show me something I can read that outweighs "if man lay with man, he shall surely die" - and without some weak ass "oh, that came from Leviticus!" defense. Really dude? That's your argument? I'll have to be sure to keep that in mind next time someone quotes something you stated.

divorce = adultery. lets see what leviticus says about adultery -

Leviticus 20:10

"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife – with the wife of his neighbor – both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."

anybody who is not tarded can see that leviticus is full of absolute ****ing nonsense.

here is a great passage that would condemn just about every young person in murica -

Leviticus 20:9

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

leviticus also has some great insight on slave ownership -

Leviticus 25:44-45

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

when you starting reading some this nonsense the "that came from leviticus" defense makes a lot of sense

[Hoodlum Science]

divorce = adultery. lets see what leviticus says about adultery -



anybody who is not tarded can see that leviticus is full of absolute ****ing nonsense.

here is a great passage that would condemn just about every young person in murica -



leviticus also has some great insight on slave ownership -



when you starting reading some this nonsense the "that came from leviticus" defense makes a lot of sense

Find or show me a single book or gospel within the Bible that doesn't have at least something that doesn't make complete and total sense? I'm starting to believe you can't find a single scripture that would come across as more condemning as the one I've quoted.

[mrpuente]

OK, so let's say subject A) arrived at "default" sexual orientation of being straight. Then a year later they're gay. Two years after that, they're straight, then gay again, then back to being straight, and now finally they're gay. Is that individual gay or straight? We don't know, they don't know. The fact they even had homosexual tendencies to begin with, does that mean they're gay, period - no question's asked?

This further makes it clear you can't be born 100% gay. If the subject example above keeps flipping back and forth, doesn't it demonstrate they're more bi-sexual? Alright, so if it's 100% pure genetics; either you're born gay, you're born homosexual, or you're born bi-sexual, there shouldn't be so much flip-flopping, right?

It doesn't make sense that you are born 100% gay. Wouldn't you agree? Especially these people who keep switching teams, right? Doesn't it make more sense to subscribe to the % this and % that theory?

Hes trying to say that the people that flip from homosexual to heterosexual are really one or the other and not really both. People will follow their heart not what choice they are supposed to make or do make at the certain time. Im sure there are bi people, but bi isnt exactly straight up gay.

You have grown ass men with familes wives and lives finally wake up one day and say "Holy shit, Im focking gay! And have been my whole life." People will hide and go on living their unhappy lives because of what is supposed to be right.

How can someone other then an actual gay person tell you whether or not they where born that way? The entire gay community tells us how they are born that way and love who they love. Which in return is why its wrong to judge them for being BORN a certain way.

[Nanners]

Find or show me a single book or gospel within the Bible that doesn't have at least something that doesn't make complete and total sense? I'm starting to believe you can't find a single scripture that would come across as more condemning as the one I've quoted.

i agree, there is something in leviticus that makes total sense.

we need to start killing people who say bad things about their parents.


Leviticus 20:9

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

[-p.tiddy-]

OK, so you basically agree you can't be born 100% gay or 100% straight?

I know for fact that at least some gay men are born 100% red hot flamer gay...basically come straight out of the womb with a limp wrist, a lispy voice, and giving their mother fashion tips lol

I went to grade school with a boy who everyone in the school knew was gay before any of us even knew what sex was. You could just tell, it was amazingly obvious even in the 1st grade...and when he "came out" in high school no one was surprised...he was just confirming what everyone else knew already.


ALSO, I know a girl who was raped in high school and because of that she tried to go lesbian...it didn't work out for her mo matter how hard she tried because she was born completely straight and there is nothing she could do about it.

If being gay was more of a nurture thing then people would be flip flopping all the time...nut they aren't, they all feel as though they were born a certain way and there is nothing they can do about it.

[Nanners]

I know for fact that at least some gay men are born 100% red hot flamer gay...basically come straight out of the womb with a limp wrist, a lispy voice, and giving their mother fashion tips lol

I went to grade school with a boy who everyone in the school knew was gay before any of us even knew what sex was. You could just tell, it was amazingly obvious even in the 1st grade...and when he "came out" in high school no one was surprised...he was just confirming what everyone else knew already.


ALSO, I know a girl who was raped in high school and because of that she tried to go lesbian...it didn't work out for her mo matter how hard she tried because she was born completely straight and there is nothing she could do about it.

If being gay was more of a nurture thing then people would be flip flopping all the time...nut they aren't, they all feel as though they were born a certain way and there is nothing they can do about it.

nice post. anecdotal evidence of a "kid you know who has been gay since 1st grade" and a "girl who was raped in high school" used to come to the conclusion that "they all feel as though they were born a certain way and there is nothing they can do about it"

[LJJ]

nice post. anecdotal evidence of a kid you know who has been gay since 1st grade and a girl who was raped in high school used to come to the conclusion that "they all feel as though they were born a certain way and there is nothing they can do about it"

Also the entire nature vs nurture argument doesn't boil down to:
Nature - people are born gay or straight and nothing that happens after birth has any impact on one's sexuality.
Nurture - people have 100% control over their sexuality and can flip flop at will.

The argument is more of a weighting issue, which factor contributes more and which factor contributes less, rather than a this-or-that. There is a lot of research that indicates early childhood has an impact on sexuality. There is a lot of evidence that supports genetics playing a big role also.

[Nanners]

Also the entire nature vs nurture argument doesn't boil down to:
Nature - people are born gay or straight and nothing that happens after birth has any impact on one's sexuality.
Nurture - people have 100% control over their sexuality and can flip flop at will.

The argument is more of a weighting issue, which factor contributes more and which factor contributes less, rather than a this-or-that. There is a lot of research that indicates early childhood has an impact on sexuality. There is a lot of evidence that supports genetics playing a big role also.

my guess is that terms of the social traits of a human being, nature almost always trumps nurture.

I would really appreciate one of the posters that think sexuality is determined by genetics to help me wrap my head around this-

if a gay gene existed, it would always be declining in frequency relative to the straight gene. the reason that gene frequency changes in a population is beneficial genes increase the probability or viability of an organism to reproduce. anybody with a gay gene would be reproductively disadvantaged compared to individuals with straight genes.

people say things like "homos are against what nature intended!". if the laws of nature are actually opposed to gay individuals, the genes involved would be eradicating themselves over time without without any help from us.

[Swaggin916]

The nature vs. nurture thing to me is a dead argument. We are all born wired a certain way, but environment shapes the development of a person. Babies who don't fuss a lot are easier to create attachments towards and will likely have their needs met more than a very fussy child. The very fussy child might not feel like it's needs are being met and go more into avoidance as it gets older rather than attachment... generally speaking that will have effects on the individual throughout their lives, but it's not always the case as different temperaments create different outcomes and certain experiences at certain times can completely send the brain haywire.

I haven't done any research on this, but I'm sure there are pre-dispositions for homo sexuality, but certainly environment plays a huge role in shaping sexuality. If there wasn't all this crap about men/women are "supposed" to be together and have sexual relationships, who knows how many more same sex encounters/relationships there would be. I am 99.9% sure there would be a helluva lot more. A lot of teens go throughout high school with few encounters with the opposite sex... It's not going out on a limb to say those horny teens would be more likely to do stuff with each other if there wasn't this bias.

[ace23]

I think you did, I think he means that because 5% of the male population is gay (or whatever the statistic is) doesn't mean straight guys will get 5% more women to choose from because 5% of females will be gay too (making them unavailable).

The number of gay men does not influence the number lesbians. Two independent counts.