1968 NBA Finals (BOS vs LAL) Retroactive Finals MVP Thread

[jongib369]

foul

Not in a man's league

haha

[julizaver]

Russell has a case of being the FMVP for every 11 Celtics rings. Maybe that year if there was a real voting, people back then would choose Hondo over Russell just because they would be tired or bored of Russell 7-8 possible FMVPs.

[ThaRegul8r]

Russell has a case of being the FMVP for every 11 Celtics rings.

Obviously not, as he didn't win FMVP for their 11th ring in reality, when the award existed. Meaning that the maximum he could possibly have is 10, and thus the task is determining how many of those 10 FMVPs he would have won had the award existed for his entire career rather than the last year of it.

[fpliii]

some great discussion so far, interesting points have been raised about the last two games of the series

(btw KG215 I haven't forgotten your request, I'm slowly collecting data)

[jlip]

Gifted Mind's post

[fpliii]

(copied from OP, just added this edit) Petroslav from APBR has generously donated some of the fruits of his own labor to future editions this project. Here are the complete box scores from 66 and 67:

http://www39.zippyshare.com/v/81758012/file.html
http://www17.zippyshare.com/v/43744816/file.html

I'll add the articles from the LA Times and Boston Globe to add to the package, but this contribution has greatly reduced my work and has afforded everyone a sneak peak.

[KG215]

some great discussion so far, interesting points have been raised about the last two games of the series

(btw KG215 I haven't forgotten your request, I'm slowly collecting data)

Take your time.

Have you or anyone else seen this site or already know about it?

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/home.htm

That may have been one of the ones you posted earlier. Someone on here directed me to it a couple of years ago when I started compiling playoff and Finals game-by-game stat-lines for certain players.

It's even got game summaries for some of the Finals games. For the '67 Finals, or instance, it has a pretty good summary for all the games. Not so much for the '68 Finals, though. It's just hit-or-miss with some of the boxscores and game summaries for some of the earlier Finals.

[oolalaa]

If anyone is interested, I did a breakdown of the '69 Finals too, using the L.A Times and Boston Globe newspaper articles fpliii was good enough to provide, as well as various other papers....


Game 1
West - 53/3/10 (21/41, 11/13)
Baylor - 24/8/5 (10/21, 4/8)
Wilt - 15/23/4 (6/11, 3/9)
Russ - 16/27/5 (6/12, 4/5)
Hondo - 37/12/4 (14/25, 9/9)
Jones - 21/1/6 (9/13, 3/4)

lakers win 120-118

-- There were 21 lead changes throughout the game.
-- West scored 17 points in the 4th quarter. Hondo scored 7.
-- With less than 2 minutes to go, West nailed 2 jumpers from the "side" to give L.A a 119-116 lead.
-- Wilt got an offensive rebound/basket from a West miss with 23 seconds to go. That gave L.A a 3 point cushion.
-- Emmette Bryant then missed a layup attempt whilst being harried by Wilt. The rebound went out of bounds off a Laker. Wilt proceeded to goaltended a Russell attempt with 9 seconds left.
-- West was fouled with 4 seconds remaining. He buried both FTs to give the Lakers a 3 point lead.
-- Wilt blocked at least a dozen shots but was called for several goal tending violations (He cut his hand on one block attempt).
-- West was moslty guarded 1v1 by Emmette Bryant. Russell wasn't closing out on West on his forays to the basket as often as he normally would becuase he was pre-occupied with Wilt. Russell had "only" 4 blocks.


Player of the game - West



Game 2
West - 41/3/8 (12/22, 17/20)
Baylor - 32/10/5 (11/15, 10/12)
Wilt - 4/19/4 (1/6, 2/4)
Russ - 9/21/13 (4/7, 1/5)
Hondo - 43/12/6 (15/27, 13/14)
Jones - 21/4/0 (10/26, 1/1)

Lakers win 118-112

-- Baylor scored 18 points in the 4th Q. He scored the Lakers last 12 points (10 of them in the final 2 and a half minutes), including 4 crucial FTs in the final 42 seconds when the game was tied.
-- West had 5 points in the 4th.
-- Johhny Egan poured in 26 points (A playoff career high). The attention West received can be attributed to this. His man would often sag off him to keep close to West.
-- Wilt had several offensive rebounds.
-- Nelson had to have 6 stitches after colliding with Wilt's jaw in the Final period. Wilt was icing said jaw after the game.
-- West was being guarded by Jones, Seigfried, and Hondo for the last 4 minutes. He was getting periodically doubled by Bryant, too.


Player of the game - Baylor



Game 3
West - 24/1/6 (9/24, 6/7)
Baylor - 11/14/1 (4/18, 3/4)
Wilt - 16/26/2 (6/11, 4/11)
Russ - 11/18/3 (5/12, 1/2)
Hondo - 34/13/7 (13/24, 8/9)
Jones - 15/3/3 (6/16, 3/4)

Boston wins 111-105

-- The Lakers were down by 17 at the half before rallying back in the 3rd.
-- West and Baylor then went ice cold in the 4th quarter, as Hondo and Siegfried (28 points for the game playing with a pulled hamstring & bruised hip) got hot. West 1-9 in the 4th, Baylor 0-5. West blamed tiredness. Hondo scored 13 in the 4th, Siegfried 11.
-- Egan was seemingly the entire Laker offense in the final period. At one point, he had scored 14 of the Lakers 16 points.
-- Erickson, Hewitt and Hawkins were all on Hondo at different times.
-- The Celtics were allowed to take far too many uncontested mid-range jumpers.


Player of the game - Havlicek



Game 4
West - 40/6/4 (15/30, 10/10)
Baylor - 5/10/4 (2/14, 1/5)
Wilt - 8/31/1 (3/8, 2/11)
Russ - 6/29/2 (2/12, 2/4)
Hondo - 21/8/2 (7/18, 7/8)
Jones - 16/4/1 (6/14, 4/4)

Boston wins 89-88

-- West had 25 points in the 2nd half, 11 in the 4th quarter, 5 points in the final 2 minutes, including 2 FTs to put L.A up by a basket with 21 seconds left.
-- Up by 1 point with 15 seconds left, the Lakers inbounded the ball to Egan who was quickly double teamed. He lost the ball to Bryant (Egan said he should have been awarded a foul claiming Bryant hit him). Sam Jones then missed a 15 foot go-ahead jumper, which ended up out of bounds after Baylor couldn't save a Wilt tip (Baylor was adamant that he didn't step out of bounds when flipping the ball back to teammate Erickson). Celtic ball.
-- Down by 1 with 7 seconds left, the Celtics set a "triple pick" for Sam Jones who launched a high arching shot that hit the rim twice before falling in for the game winner. Hondo with the assist. Russell was on the bench for the play.
-- Keith Erickson contained Havlicek in the 4th quarter. He was the only other Laker who scored in double figures.
-- Van Breda Kolff questioned the workings of the 24 second shot clock on Boston posessions in the final period. He claimed it often started too late. "A lot of teams are concerned about the clock here" he said.
-- "I must be a loser....I don't know" said a disconsolate West said after the game.


Player of the game - West



Game 5
West - 39/3/9 (16/31, 7/8)
Baylor - 8/5/5 (4/13, 0/4)
Wilt - 13/31/3 (5/9, 3/8)
Russ - 7/13/5 (5/5, 1/1)
Hondo - 18/14/5 (6/21, 6/8)
Jones - 25/4/4 (11/21, 3/5)

Lakers win 117-104

-- Hondo only had 6 points thru 3 quarters with Erickson guarding him.
-- Russell was passive defensively after picking up his 4th foul mid-way through the 3rd. Several Lakers proceeded to drive to the basket without the usual resistance.
-- West scored 28 points in the 2nd half, 14 in the 4th quarter, including 13 in a 4 minute span that ripped the game wide open at the beginning of the final period. He had poured in 10 field goals in a row at one point.
-- West pulled his left hamstring with around 2 minutes to go in the final period, when the game was already wrapped up.
-- The second chance shots really hurt the Celtics. Lakers took 17 more shots than Boston. Most of the credit has to go to Wilt for this. Wilt also had 7 blocks.
-- West was double teamed throughout the game. He consistently found the open man. Egan had 23 points.
-- "Can we win without Jerry? No, I don't think so. If Jerry can't play, I guess I'll have to do more on offense. I have to be ready to play" Wilt remarked after the game.


Player of the game - West



Game 6
West - 26/4/3 (9/19, 8/11)
Baylor - 26/10/0 (9/18, 8/10)
Wilt - 8/18/4 (1/5, 6/10)
Russ - 9/19/2 (3/8, 3/3)
Hondo - 19/9/2 (8/26, 3/4)
Jones - 9/2/0 (4/8, 1/1)

Boston wins 99-90

-- Sam Jones received an 85 second standing ovation by the Celtics fans before the game. It was his last ever home game.
-- A pretty abject all-around performance form the Lakers. They commited 26 turnovers.
-- West was playing with a heavily bandaged left leg. He claimed the lack of power in his leg prevented him from driving to the basket when he wanted.
-- Don Nelson had a big game (25 points & 9 boards in only 23 minutes). He was mainly responsible for the 16 point half time lead that the Celtics would cling on to for the remainder of the game, and stemmed the tide when L.A were surging back early in the 4th.
-- Baylor wasn't always sticking to the game plan. Wasn't giving it to Wilt and cutting as often as Breda Kolff would have liked.
-- Still, Breda Kolff had this to say regarding Wilt - "We got the ball into him at times but he didn't do anything with it". So much for stepping up when needed, huh Wilt?
-- A pulled groin muscle the reason for Hondo's poor play in the last 3 games? So he claims.


Player of the game - Nelson



Game 7
West - 42/13/12 (14/29, 14/18)
Baylor - 20/15/7 (8/22, 4/5)
Wilt - 18/27/3 (7/8, 4/13)
Russ - 6/21/6 (2/7, 2/4)
Hondo - 26/9/5 (11/19, 4/7)
Jones - 24/7/2 (10/16, 4/4)

Boston wins 108-106

-- Jerry West was noticably limping throughout the game.
-- Russell picked up his 5th foul early in the 4th quarter.
-- The Lakers trailed by 17 points with less than 10 minutes remaining, thanks to a big 3rd period by Boston.
-- Jones fouled out of his last ever game mid-way through the 4th.
-- After jarring his knee with around 5 minutes left in the final period, Wilt wanted out of the game, which Breda Kolff duly granted. But when Wilt asked to come back in a couple of minutes later Breda Kolff ignored him before finally declaring "We're playing better without you" (L.A scored 6 unanswered points with Wilt warming the bench). He sat for the remainder of the game. Mel Counts replaced him.
-- West scored 17 points in the 4th quarter. He was single handily leading a furious Laker charge. Seemingly every trip down the court he was swishing mid range jumper after mid range jumper, or getting to the line and making free throw after free throw (5/7 FGs & 7/9 FTs in the 4th) before finally running out of steam with around 4 minutes to go. He only took 1 shot in the last 4 minutes.
-- Don Nelson's "lucky" shot with a minute to go gave the Celtics a 3 point cushion. It bounced straight up, high off the inside of the rim, and swished through the Laker net on the way down.
-- Russell blocked a Mel Counts attempt with around 30 seconds to go, with the Lakers still down by 3.
-- Siegfried grabbed a rebound, was fouled, and buried 2 crucial free throws to put Boston up by 5.
-- For the game, the Lakers were 28/47 from the line.
-- Auerbach wasn't exactly magnanamous in defeat - "What are they gunna do with all those ****ing balloons now? And all that champaigne??" referring to the balloons that were set to be released from the ceiling upon a Laker victory.
-- Hondo echoed his teammates sentiments - "Just once, I'd like to see an individual like Jerry West be on a championship team"
-- A women stepped in front of Russell as he was walking out of the building and pushed a notepad and pen in front of him - "You've refused all these years. How about signing this now, just for once?". Russell ignored her.


Player of the game - West

[oolalaa]

Any let-down whatsoever by West and his own team absolutely murdered him. Essentially, there were only 2 blemishes that marked West's entire series; Poor 4th quarter in game 3 (Understandibly induced by tiredness), and an "average" performance in the potentially close-out game 6 (With a pulled, heavily bandaged left hamstring). Both times, his teammates failed miserably to pick up the slack (With the exception of Egan's big final period in game 3).

Baylor was abominabally pathetic in the decisive games 3, 4 & 5. Over that span, he averaged 8/10/3 on 22% shooting. TWENTY TWO PERCENT!!!! At this point in his career, outside of his scoring and rebounding, Baylor was contributing absolutely NOTHING to the Lakers. He was completely worthless defensively, and was never a great or willing passer/playmaker. You can imagine, then, the type of player the Lakers were lumbered with in the middle of that series. A one-legged, arthritic eskimo who was legally blind in one eye would have been more productive.

Where was Wilt?? He exhibited an obscene level of passiveness throughout the entire series. It's no secret that Breda Kolff didn't make him the focus of the Laker offense, that he played Wilt in the high post to accommodate Baylor, but there is absolutely no excuse for taking less shots per game than Johnny Egan AND Keith Erickson. Clearly he didn't want the ball. When the lakers needed him to step up in game 6, and take on more of the offensive load, he shrunk, scoring just 1 measly field goal on only 5 shot attempts. His terrible free throw shooting performance in game 4 cannot be ignored, either. He missed 9 of 11 foul shots in a game that the Lakers lost by 1 one point. Oops.

Game 4 was the absolute killer and the turning point. If Wilt and Baylor didn't inexcusably combine to shoot 5/22 from the field and 3/16 from the line, then Sam Jones wouldn't have been given the opportunity to convert perhaps the luckiest game winner in Finals history. Boston were there for the taking. They were old and tiring. Hondo, likely due to a pulled groin, had his first poor game of the series, and Russell scored just 6 points on 12 shots. They say the NBA is a 'make or miss' league. MAKE SOME ****ING SHOTS!! GIVE JERRY WEST SOME ****ING HELP!! After that loss, it was inevitably going to go to a seventh and deciding game. Bill Russell was 9-0 in game 7s prior to the '69 Finals. A team with Bill Russell on it didn't lose close series.


Other than West, only Havlicek has a case for FMVP, and that's ONLY because he was a member of the winning team. He was really great in the first 3 games, but West was even greater, and the Lakers won 2 out of 3. He then rattled off 3 incredibly mediocre performances in games 4, 5 & 6. It wasn't just his shooting (32%), his non-stop motor deserted him as well, and, as a resuIt, his all-around game suffered. He did say he was playing with a pulled groin, though. Considering his sharp drop off in performance, I'm certainly willing to believe him. I also find it curious why he wasn't Jerry West's primary defender throughout the series (Even in the first 3 games), considering he was easily Boston's best perimiter defender. Maybe Russell didn't want to wear him out, but West was the entire Laker offense. Stopping him should have been the primary goal.

Speaking of Russell, he was clearly fatiguing as the series progressed. There wasn't much from him in crunch time, and in the key moments/periods. His best performance was in game 1, and he seemed to reach rock bottom by the 5th game, in which his getting abused by Wilt on the boards was mainly responsible for the loss. He was still operating the mid-post really well - spreading the floor, finding open shooters cutters etc. His 5 assists per game average, including 13 assists in game 2, are an indication of this - but there is almost no mention of Russell's defense/shot blocking in any of the 7 games.


Jerry West didn't just deserve the FMVP, he deserved his 1st championship as well....

[julizaver]

Speaking of Russell, he was clearly fatiguing as the series progressed. There wasn't much from him in crunch time, and in the key moments/periods. His best performance was in game 1, and he seemed to reach rock bottom by the 5th game, in which his getting abused by Wilt on the boards was mainly responsible for the loss. He was still operating the mid-post really well - spreading the floor, finding open shooters cutters etc. His 5 assists per game average, including 13 assists in game 2, are an indication of this - but there is almost no mention of Russell's defense/shot blocking in any of the 7 games.


Jerry West didn't just deserve the FMVP, he deserved his 1st championship as well....

Russell blocked 4 shots in Game 1 and Wilt blocked 13 shots in that game also. And Wilt blocked 7 shots in Game 5.

[9erempiree]

Awesome thread.

Will try to participate with my busy schedule.

[oolalaa]

Russell blocked 4 shots in Game 1 and Wilt blocked 13 shots in that game also. And Wilt blocked 7 shots in Game 5.

Thanks a lot. I updated the breakdown. Do you have an opinion on the '68 or '69 Finals? Do you think Russell deserved the FMVP in '68, or Hondo? Are you okay with a member of the losing team winning the FMVP, like West did in '69?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Game 4
Wilt - 8/31/1 (3/8, 2/11)

Boston wins 89-88

Game 7

Wilt - 18/27/3 (7/8, 4/13)

Boston wins 108-106

Wilt Chokedagain

[fpliii]

So you guys have had some time to sit on this now...

Any last comments before I start counting up votes?

(BTW next up is the 67 Finals, remember that we're going backwards)

[oolalaa]

So you guys have had some time to sit on this now...

Any last comments before I start counting up votes?

(BTW next up is the 67 Finals, remember that we're going backwards)

Give it to Russell and let's keep mowing 'em down!