Hakeem vs Kareem

[jlauber]

BTW, Shaq's HIGHEST game against Hakeem, came in the '99 playoffs and against a washed-up Olajuwon...of 37 points. This was a PRIME Shaq against a has-been Hakeem. Yet, a 37 and 38 year old Kareem had THREE 40+ point games against much more prime Hakeem.

[ShaqAttack3234]

at jlauber bringing up Wilt again.

And Kareem is one of the 2 guys I consider for GOAT(along with MJ), as much as I like Hakeem(who I think gets underrated), Kareem is the clear answer.

[Harison]

Shaqattack will say Shaq is greater than either of them, while lauber will say Chamberlain > Shaq. 5 pages of arguments will happen between each other, then KBlaze will chime in and write a thesis about how we can't conclusively prove that each center is better, lamenting on the state of the forum and how its gone down from the early 2000s.

[Harison]

Kareem had clearly better career, but if I would have to choose prime Dream or KAJ, I would rather have Dream.

[ThaRegul8r]

And Kareem is one of the 2 guys I consider for GOAT(along with MJ), as much as I like Hakeem(who I think gets underrated), Kareem is the clear answer.

Hakeem gets underrated?

[millwad]

They DID face each other...several times. According to Psileas Kareem had his season-high game against Hakeem in the 84-85 with a 40 point performance.

In that 85-86 season, there is some question as to how often Hakeem guarded Kareem, BUT he DEFINITELY guarded Kareem in at least one game...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=206575



For that entire 85-86 regular season, in their FIVE H2H games, Kareem averaged 33.0 ppg and shot an eye-popping .634 from the field against Hakeem and the Rockets.

True, Hakeem torched LA in games three and four of the WCF's, but unfortunately for Kareem, he seemed to have SEVERAL post-seasons in which he played considerably worse than he did in the regular season. He was well below his normal averages against Wilt in their '71 WCF's (25 ppg and .481 shooting, in a year in which he averaged 31.7 ppg and shot .577.) In the '72 playoffs against Thurmond, he averaged 22.8 ppg on .405 shooting, but his superior teammates allowed him to escape to the next series against LA, where, despite 33 ppg, he only shot .457 against Wilt (and only .414 in the last four games.) In game seven of the '74 Finals, and at home, he was outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens (outscored, outrebounded, and outshot), although to his credit, he played exceptionally well for the rest of that series. He was outplayed by Moses in both the '81 and '83 post-season. And, he was awful in his '88 and '89 post-seasons, particularly the Finals.

Still, for a 37 and 38 year old Kareem to be just be CRUSHING a Hakeem whose numbers were not far from his peak in those years (and his shooting even better) just says it all. His 46 point game came against a 23 year old Hakeem, too. Why is that important? Because a Kareem at 23 was the league MVP, and a Finals MVP. Furthermore, Hakeem was voted first-team all-defense in the very next season (86-87), so clearly, if an over-the-hill Kareem could abuse a 23 year-old Hakeem...the assumption has to be that a PRIME Kareem would just have carpet-bombed a prime Hakeem.

BTW, Hakeem couldn't contend with Kareem's sweeping hook, but a 35 year old Wilt, at the twilight of his career, and playing on a surgically-repaired knee, could block FIFTEEN of them in the '72 WCF's.

I talked about prime Hakeem vs prime Kareem, Hakeem entered his prime 5 years after Kareem left the game of basketball.

And do you know what the funny thing is, all that text and still you forgot who guarded Kareem during his high point games, it was Sampson, idiot. And there are several clips where Hakeem swatted the shit outta Kareem's beloved hooks..

Kid, instead of watching the statistics, watch the gaaaaames..

[millwad]

BTW, Shaq's HIGHEST game against Hakeem, came in the '99 playoffs and against a washed-up Olajuwon...of 37 points. This was a PRIME Shaq against a has-been Hakeem. Yet, a 37 and 38 year old Kareem had THREE 40+ point games against much more prime Hakeem.

Sampson guarded him, not Hakeem, watch the tapes, fool.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hakeem gets underrated?

Absolutely, most consider him a borderline top 10 player, while I think he's easily top 10 by any criteria(except if you merely ranked players according to rings, which nobody does consistently without considering other factors).

Look at all of the hype Lebron is getting for a run that definitely doesn't match Hakeem's 2 title runs(and he hasn't won yet either), I was young at the time, but I know for a fact that Hakeem wasn't getting this much hype when he was winning. Nor did he get as much as Kobe or any other top 10 player in the last 30 years.

I really don't see how someone could have watched Hakeem and say there were 8-9 or more players better than him. Yet some call him overrated, which makes me think he's even more underrated.

[jlip]

Offensively it's Kareem by a sizeable margin, but I think that people are severely underrating prime Kareem's defense. Regul8r did a post some time ago adressing how underrated Kareem's defensive impact on those early Bucks teams were.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...893&page=7=#96

Also I know that individual stats can't possibly tell the entire story regarding defensive prowess, but Kareem has 4 blocks titles, a rebounding title, and was a top 5 rebounder for most of the 70's. That's even with blocks not being counted during his 1st four seasons. Kareem also has as many all defensive 1st team selections as Hakeem does. A case can actually be made that Kareem was at least Hakeem's equal defensively if not better.

[jlauber]

Sampson guarded him, not Hakeem, watch the tapes, fool.

Definitely not in Kareem's 46 point game...on 21-30 shooting...in 37 minutes.

Here was the recap:

Los Angeles Times:

While Akeem Olajuwon spent the whole game trying to steal the ball from Abdul-Jabbar, the Laker center spent the whole game throwing down a breathtaking series of hook shots on his way to a 46-point explosion.

For some reason, Rocket Coach Bill Fitch thinks it is a good idea to let Olajuwon go one-on-one with Abdul-Jabbar. It proved to be the biggest coaching blunder in any Laker game this season.

Abdul-Jabbar made 21 of 30 shots in 37 minutes to reach his high this season. He probably could have scored 50 points (his career high is 55) had he played any longer.

Next time...YOU do some research before making an asinine post.

Hakeem obviously could NOT guard an aged Kareem.

No wonder Houston HAD to have Sampson guard the rest-home Kareem.

[jlauber]

Absolutely, most consider him a borderline top 10 player, while I think he's easily top 10 by any criteria(except if you merely ranked players according to rings, which nobody does consistently without considering other factors).

Look at all of the hype Lebron is getting for a run that definitely doesn't match Hakeem's 2 title runs(and he hasn't won yet either), I was young at the time, but I know for a fact that Hakeem wasn't getting this much hype when he was winning. Nor did he get as much as Kobe or any other top 10 player in the last 30 years.

I really don't see how someone could have watched Hakeem and say there were 8-9 or more players better than him. Yet some call him overrated, which makes me think he's even more underrated.

He was no Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem FOR SURE...and I see him with NO case over either Shaq or Duncan. At BEST, he was a #8. And to be honest, his career doesn't match Kobe's. If you want to rank him over Bird, based solely on a better post-season career...I won't argue. Most would disagree even with that.

And the more I look at Moses' peak dominance, the harder it is for me to even rank Hakeem over him. And given West's absolute brilliance in BOTH his regular seasons and post-seasons, he also has an argument. My god...a PEAK McAdoo...and including BOTH regular season AND post-season play is right there, as well.

[kaiiu]

Hakeem just cuz he was black

[G.O.A.T]

Absolutely, most consider him a borderline top 10 player, while I think he's easily top 10 by any criteria(except if you merely ranked players according to rings, which nobody does consistently without considering other factors).

Rings, and the runs he put together to get them are his only case for the top ten.

Otherwise for the rest of his career he did nothing to separate himself from the likes of contemporaries Ewing, Robinson, Malone and Barkley.

Look at all of the hype Lebron is getting for a run that definitely doesn't match Hakeem's 2 title runs(and he hasn't won yet either), I was young at the time, but I know for a fact that Hakeem wasn't getting this much hype when he was winning. Nor did he get as much as Kobe or any other top 10 player in the last 30 years.

That's because his time on top was so short. Hakeem was not in the conversation as the leagues best player prior to 1994. The year before he posted better numbers than Charles Barkley but Barkley won the MVP and the West.

Unlike guys like Wilt, Kareem, Mikan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Russell and Jordan who dominated entire decades or eras, Hakeem teetered on the next level and then made a brief appearance among the elite which coincidence or not coincided with the absence of his eras most dominant figure.

Even players like Kobe, Oscar, West, Doctor J and Elgin Baylor were better for longer, tough they never peaked as high as Hakeem.

[jlauber]

Rings, and the runs he put together to get them are his only case for the top ten.

Otherwise for the rest of his career he did nothing to separate himself from the likes of contemporaries Ewing, Robinson, Malone and Barkley.



That's because his time on top was so short. Hakeem was not in the conversation as the leagues best player prior to 1994. The year before he posted better numbers than Charles Barkley but Barkley won the MVP and the West.

Unlike guys like Wilt, Kareem, Mikan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Russell and Jordan who dominated entire decades or eras, Hakeem teetered on the next level and then made a brief appearance among the elite which coincidence or not coincided with the absence of his eras most dominant figure.

Even players like Kobe, Oscar, West, Doctor J and Elgin Baylor were better for longer, tough they never peaked as high as Hakeem.

Outstanding post.

[jlauber]

I have said it before, but Hakeem basically built his entire career with TWO playoff runs (and in one of those, MJ did not play BTW.) He outplayed Ewing in one, although his numbers in that series not staggering ( 27 ppg, 9 rpg and .500 shooting.) And in the other run, he badly outplayed Robinson, and IMO, he was, at best, at a draw with a young Shaq in the other (don't take my word for it look at the ACTUAL numbers... he outscored Shaq, 32-28 ppg, but was outrebounded, and LIT up in terms of FG%, Shaq at .595 and Hakeem at .483.)

BUT, take a look at Hakeem vs. Robinson in their 42 H2H games. Aside from Hakeem outscoring Robinson by two ppg (21.9 to 19.6), and Robinson considerably outshooting Hakeem (.488 to .441)...their numbers were nearly IDENTICAL. Oh, except that Robinson's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem's.

THEN, take a look at Shaq vs Hakeem in their H2H's. Shaq easily outplayed him. A PRIME Hakeem MAY have outplayed a young Shaq, but a PRIME Shaq BURIED an over-the-hill Hakeem.

And one more time...Hakeem NEVER had what I would term a GREAT regular season. He NEVER won a scoring title. He NEVER won an efficiency title (and was never close, either.) He won TWO rebounding titles in EIGHTEEN years (albeit, which is one more than Kareem), and he won four block titles. Many very good seasons, but hardly "immortal" one's.

ONE MVP award...in those 18 seasons. TWO Finals MVPs. A couple of statistical titles. And EIGHT first round exits in the playoffs in 15 (of 18) seasons...or over HALF of his career. Sorry, but that PALES in comparison to players like Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Duncan. Then, it just becomes very close between Hakeem, Bird, Oscar, Moses, Kobe and West.