2012 OTC WWWF/WWF/WWE Match Thread

[Jackass18]

Savage is so much better, there's literally no argument for Hart.

Huh? Both great wrestlers, but Hart edges him out, and Bret kills him in the belts. Also, Hart was a big draw internationally.

[raiderfan19]

Huh? Both great wrestlers, but Hart edges him out, and Bret kills him in the belts. Also, Hart was a big draw internationally.

Hart couldn't draw for shit anywhere but Canada

[raiderfan19]

Can easily be due to him snapping into slimjims. I stand by my vote for Hart.

I voted for savage but a vote for hart can easily be defended

[Jackass18]

Hart couldn't draw for shit anywhere but Canada

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=39935

Not that I like the draw argument, but I heard he did fine outside of NA.

[blacknapalm]

i prefer hart over savage but to each their own. it's too bad wcw bungled hart's career. hart saved and carried mcmahon out of the steroid scandal. he was huge for them between '93-'96, especially on a workrate/professional level. he brought them nothing but good press in a time when the writing and match quality took a major dip. those early WM's? man, some of them were brutal. wwf was struggling and limping long before wcw took off.

i also feel hart is a bit underrated on the mic. those heel canada vs. america promos he cut were pretty good. he wasn't always a smooth talker but he got his point across with conviction. i don't know why folks act like he couldn't cut a promo to save his life. the lead up and match with austin @ WM 13 was excellent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvsqA0eSqcY (just look how into it the crowd is)



as far as savage, some of his most underrated work involve his feud with ddp in wcw. he helped put ddp on the map and they had a good back and forth feud going on for a while.

to be fair, hbk wasn't a huge draw either. i say that as a big hbk fan as he was the total package performance wise, heel or face. as far as draws go, no one really came close to hogan, flair and austin. flair tends to overstate his drawing ability. he had his missteps too.

peak austin moved merch like nobody's business and would get huge pops wherever he went. even past his prime in 2002, austin was the face and main event draw of the company. it's a shame they never went the austin vs. hogan route but they royally screwed up the invasion angle altogether. rock vs. hogan was still a decent match so i digress.

[raiderfan19]

They wanted to do the Austin/hogan feud but neither could agree to a finish. Odd that hogan would Job clean to the rock but not to austin

[Knicks101]

Hart had 3 match of the years, Savage 1.

#1 singles wrestler of the year twice, Savage highest was #2 once.

Hart had 2 feuds of the year, Savage one.

they each won a king of the ring

Hart had 5 WWF titles, savage 2. Each had 2 IC title reigns. Hart also adds two tag title reigns in his Hart Foundation run which had longevity. Also won a Royal Rumble.


Hart did it all. NOT ARGUABLE IMO. Maybe there's some overrating of Savage going on because of his recent death or people forget what Hart was because of the way he went out.

Are you using PWI awards? It's a f[COLOR="Black"]u[/COLOR]cking kayfabe magazine means nothing.

Plus it was probably one of the weakest eras in wrestling history. Sting was WCW's top guy at the time and he stinks so it's not surprising that Hart won. Bret Hart wouldn't have been the top guy in any other era due to his lack of mic skills and charisma. He had one of my favorite matches ever vs Mr. Perfect and he's a great wrestler but he's boring outside of the ring.

Out of the those three matches of the years, only one is actually that good. the Davey Boy match is a botchfest, the Ironman match is a snorefest but the match with Austin is great.

Championships are such a dumb way to rank guys(I realize that was Maniak's doing and not yours). With that logic whoever drafted Edge should automatically win.

[Jackass18]

Sting was WCW's top guy at the time and he stinks so it's not surprising that Hart won.

How did he stink?

Bret Hart wouldn't have been the top guy in any other era due to his lack of mic skills and charisma.

Bullshit. Nash was one of the worst drawing champs and yet they gave him the belt for nearly a year. I think JBL ended up being the worst drawing champ of all time and yet they also gave him the belt for nearly a year. If they can give the belt to guys like Hardy, Orton, Batista, Sheamus, The Miz, ADR, Mysterio, Goldberg, Benoit, Undertaker, The Great Khali, Mark Henry, and the Big Show, then I don't see why Hart wouldn't be able to get it, and be one of the top guys, also. Triple H sucked on the mic for quite some. He used to grunt like a caveman after every other word.

Championships are such a dumb way to rank guys(I realize that was Maniak's doing and not yours).

Drawing power is a dumb way to rank guys. Who gives a shit what idiots are mostly drawn to? Would you rank one of the boy bands highly because they sold a lot of records? Also, some wrestlers got far better material/angles/storylines to work with than others, and had better people around to work with, as well.

With that logic whoever drafted Edge should automatically win.

Why would Edge automatically win? A number of guys held the big belts far longer than he did. There are a number of guys who were much better wrestlers than him, and a number of guys who were much better on the mic.

[Knicks101]

How did he stink?



Bullshit. Nash was one of the worst drawing champs and yet they gave him the belt for nearly a year. I think JBL ended up being the worst drawing champ of all time and yet they also gave him the belt for nearly a year. If they can give the belt to guys like Hardy, Orton, Batista, Sheamus, The Miz, ADR, Mysterio, Goldberg, Benoit, Undertaker, The Great Khali, Mark Henry, and the Big Show, then I don't see why Hart wouldn't be able to get it, and be one of the top guys, also. Triple H sucked on the mic for quite some. He used to grunt like a caveman after every other word.



Drawing power is a dumb way to rank guys. Who gives a shit what idiots are mostly drawn to? Would you rank one of the boy bands highly because they sold a lot of records? Also, some wrestlers got far better material/angles/storylines to work with than others, and had better people around to work with, as well.



Why would Edge automatically win? A number of guys held the big belts far longer than he did. There are a number of guys who were much better wrestlers than him, and a number of guys who were much better on the mic.

Sting is pretty much The Ultimate Warrior except he's smoother in the ring. Definitely not an all time great. I can name 100 guys who were better in the ring. He had some great matches with Vader, good ones with Flair. Not an all time great.

Top Guy and Champ aren't the same thing. None of those guys were ever considered to be the Man in WWE outside of Batista, maybe (who is awesome in his own right). When we're talking about the Top guys from eras, I mean Sammartino, Hogan, Bret Hart/HBK, Austin, Rock, Cena. Out of those guys Bret Hart and HBK are the weakest in terms of drawing power and aren't on the same level as the other guys. Weak era, put either in a different era and they'd be upper-midcarders at best. Jericho type guys.

Name a guy who was a huge draw who was trash? You can't do it. Of course somebody like Eddie Guerrero who was infinitely more talented than a guy like Hogan wasn't as a big a draw as Hogan but that doesn't mean Hogan wasn't good in his own right. Lot's of different things can be taken into account when ranking pro wrestlers.

We're using kayfabe accomplishments, I'm just pointing out that it's stupid to rank guys because they won a bunch of belts.

[Knicks101]

Just out of boredom, I'll pick my favorites for the last round. Honest picks, unbiased.

TheSilentKiller v Brujesino

Superstar Billy Graham v Andre the Giant
Sgt. Slaughter v Jake "The Snake" Roberts
Mankind v Ric Flair
Batista v Jimmy Snuka
Rikish + Umaga v The Natural Disasters

Need to watch more of Jake Robert's in ring stuff, think his mic work is overrated

Jackass18 v EricGordon23

Christian v JBL
Dynamite Kid v Steve Austin
Eddie Guerrero v Vader
Bruno Sammartino v Daniel Bryan
Regal + Tajiri v Carlito + The Miz

Loneshot v Maniak

Brock Lesnar v Booker T
Jeff Jarrett v Scott Steiner
The Hurricane v The Undertaker
Ultimate Warrior v Kane
Bam Bam Bigelow + Finlay v Cody Rhodes + Ted DiBiase Jr.

AK47DR91 v PullupJay

Yokozuna v Rob Van Dam
Triple H v The Rock
Chris Jericho v Mark Henry
Mr. McMahon v Hardcore Holly
Shelton Benjamin and Charlie Haas v Ryback + Wade Barret

Iamgine v QuebecBaller

Goldberg[ v Billy Gunn
Kevin Nash v Randy Orton
Alberto Del Rio v Bob Backlund
Kurt Angle v Edge
The Great Khali + Giant Gonzales v Rick Rude + Dino Bravo

Goldberg was an absolute flop in WWE, still a tough matchup

Skywalker v Knicks101

Shane McMahon v Sycho Sid
Farooq v The Iron Sheik
Razor Ramon v Ricky Steamboat
Bret Hart v Randy Savage
Matt Hardy + Jeff Hardy v The Brainbusters

Never liked Razor Ramon, thought the character was corny.

BuffaloBill v Charlie Sheen

Bobby Lashley v Bad News Brown
British Bulldog v Chris Benoit
Shawn Michaels v Big Bossman
The Big Show v Owen Hart
Ax + Smash v Ted DiBiase Sr. + IRS

LeBron23 v Kaiteng

CM Punk v Sheamus
Hulk Hogan v Roddy Piper
Rey Mysterio v John Cena
Dolph Ziggler v Dusty Rhodes
The Quebecers v The Dudley Boyz

[TheSilentKiller]

Glad to see that someone gave my team a little credit

[Jackass18]

Sting is pretty much The Ultimate Warrior except he's smoother in the ring.

Crazy talk. Sting was far, far better and far, far less insane. UW was more of a power wrestler who would shake the ropes. That's not Sting.

I can name 100 guys who were better in the ring.

Go ahead and name them. I bet some of them would be BS.

When we're talking about the Top guys from eras, I mean Sammartino, Hogan, Bret Hart/HBK, Austin, Rock, Cena.

I said one of the top guys. When you hold the top belt for a year, then you are one of the top guys. When you hold the belt for at least a decent amount of time (like a couple months), then you are one of the top guys. Even if you get buried after having the belt, you were still one of the top guys for a decent period of time. Personally, I don't give a shit who the top guy is, though. I don't really have a high opinion of Cena.

Weak era, put either in a different era and they'd be upper-midcarders at best. Jericho type guys.

All of them could be top tier guys. Who knows, maybe in a different era they would have gotten much better material and better people to work with, and became huge. Some people are just right place, right time. Some of being a top draw is who you're going against/feuding with, and how you're booked. It depends who's booking. If it's someone who loves big muscles, then the smaller guys don't have much chance. Some guys get buried due to backstage politics. It takes some guys years to find the right niche, personality, gimmick, look, etc... that finally works. Or, some guys just walk right into a really good situation. When Meltzer came out with his list, Hart was at #13 for top draw in WWE history (granted, it's just basic numbers, which makes it quite flawed).

Name a guy who was a huge draw who was trash? You can't do it.

They all have holes somewhere.

Of course somebody like Eddie Guerrero who was infinitely more talented than a guy like Hogan wasn't as a big a draw as Hogan but that doesn't mean Hogan wasn't good in his own right. Lot's of different things can be taken into account when ranking pro wrestlers.

Well, obviously. Hulk was a part of 2 of the biggest things in wrestling, though 1 doesn't count for this. With the criteria we're using, Hogan is big in 2 of the categories. Eddie is nice in all 3 categories, but falls behind Hogan in 2 of the categories. It's not like Hogan is weak in the belt category. He held the top belt for the 2nd most combined days. His 6 reigns add up to about 6 total years.

[Knicks101]

Go ahead and name them. I bet some of them would be BS.

Off the top of my head, whilst intoxicated.

Ric Flair
Arn Anderson
Barry Windham
Eddie Guerrero
Chris Benoit
Rey Mysterio
Ricky Steamboat
Ric Flair
Randy Savage
Genichiro Tenryu
Terry Gordy
Stan Hansen
Akira Taue
Kenta Kobashi
KENTA
Austin Aries
Dean Ambrose
Pat Patterson
Taz
Shelton Benjamin
Dick Murdoch
Dustin Rhodes
Dusty Rhodes
Harley Race
Jumbo Tsuruta
Misawa
Jushin Liger
Giant Baba
Bob Backlund
Sgt. Slaughter
Bruno Sammartino
Steve Austin
Undertaker
HBK
Mick Foley
Triple H
Nigel McGuinness
The Rock
Bret Hart
Mr. Perfect
Christian
William Regal
Owen Hart
Daniel Bryan
CM Punk
Butch Reed
El Santo
John Cena
Umaga
Kurt Angle
Vader
Andre the Giant
Iron Sheik
Terry Funk
Dory Funk Jr.
Rick Rude
Batista
Nick Bockwinkel
Kerry Von Erich
Lou Thesz
Killer Kowalski
Jerry Brisco
Jack Brisco
Billy Robinson
The Destroyer
Booker T
Chris Jericho
Pedro Morales
Brock Lesnar
Edge
Randy Orton
Ted Dibiase
Dustin Rhodes
Samoa Joe
Finlay
Jerry Lawler
JBL
Steve Williams
Shane Douglas
Tully Blanchard
David Von Erich
Billy Graham
Animal
Hawk
Kevin Nash
Low Ki
Ole Anderson
The Sheik


Don't know if that's one hundred. Probably isn't but the point is there's a lot. He's an average worker at best.

[Jackass18]

Off the top of my head, whilst intoxicated.

I'll let some names slide, but I'll go after some obvious ones and some of the more recent and well known people

Taz - Hell no
Shelton Benjamin - Nope
Giant Baba - **** no
Undertaker - Overrated
Mick Foley - **** no
Triple H - Hell no
Nigel McGuinness - Who?
The Rock - Hell no
John Cena - Are you outta your ****ing mind?
Umaga - No
Andre the Giant - The hell are you smoking?
Batista - Umm, no
Edge - Another highly overrated guy
Randy Orton - Nope
Dustin Rhodes - You already listed him
Finlay - No
JBL - God no, are you joking?
Kevin Nash - Dude, seriously, you're just naming names for the point of listing names

[NugzHeat3]

I haven't really followed this thread but just a follow up to an earlier debate, Savage is a ridiculously easy choice over Bret.

The biggest factor for me is their drawing ability because that's not subjective at all unlike mic work, in ring worker ect where bias and personal preference tends to shine through. Savage was the #2 guy in the Golden Era of pro wrestling aka the first boom period while Bret was the top guy when they were at the bottom of the barrel. That should end any conversation between their drawing ability. He had more mainstream appeal, bigger TV draw, drew bigger gates, PPV buyrates ect. Savage was even drawing big late in his career for example Uncensored 1998 when he headlined the PPV with Hogan and they did one of the 4 greatest buyrates in WCW history. It drew 440K domestic if I remember correctly.

Granted, I think Bret is a victim of some unfair criticism since there's several factors that impacted the business during those years that had nothing to do with who the top guy was. Bret was a decent international draw, not at the level of Austin or Rock, but in Canada especially for obvious reasons he did good numbers as well as some tours in Europe and the Middle East. In general though, you're talking about a guy who was the ultimate pro, moved merchandise and did well internationally but domestically, he was mediocre compared to a guy like Savage.

Comparing them as talents, it's extremely one sided and I'll admit I'm biased to some extent. Savage is one of the most charismatic performers and one of the greatest mic workers of all time, maybe even the greatest depending on personal preference. His voice was unique, promos were unique as was his perosnality which right of the bat set him apart from the rest of the performers. On the mic, he had depth, versatility, displayed a wide range of emotion, did a terrific job building a match and selling a PPV.

Bret was a charisma vacuum, extremely redundant and one dimensional and monotonous. Your average Bret promo were the perfect cure for insomnia. His best work was when they were switching the heel/face dynamic during the Austin vs Hart Foundation feud in 1997 depending on the city they were in and those promos pale in comparison to some of Savage's worst work.

I didn't really care much about in ring work at all in general but he has an edge there according to most people's criteria. He was more technically sound, versatile, excelled at playing the heel/babyface dynamic, good concept of in ring psychology and storytelling. Bret/Austin at Survivor Series 1996, WrestleMania 13, Bulldog/Bret ect are matches that are highly praised. Personally, I wasn't entertained by them at all. I prefer the spot heavy matches like TLC I and II for example (yeah, come at me) and I rarely paid for PPVs since in ring work is just not my thing but whenever Bret wrestled on TV, his matches were an absolute chore to watch for me.

Savage in his matches could at least infuse his charisma and connect with the crowd at a much higher level than Bret could and make it somewhat more entertaining. His matches might've been a bit more formulaic though.

to be fair, hbk wasn't a huge draw either. i say that as a big hbk fan as he was the total package performance wise, heel or face. as far as draws go, no one really came close to hogan, flair and austin. flair tends to overstate his drawing ability. he had his missteps too.

peak austin moved merch like nobody's business and would get huge pops wherever he went. even past his prime in 2002, austin was the face and main event draw of the company. it's a shame they never went the austin vs. hogan route but they royally screwed up the invasion angle altogether. rock vs. hogan was still a decent match so i digress.

Rock was definitely a bigger draw than Flair and the year he had in 2000 was roughly equivalent to Austin in 1998 or anyone else for that matter. He didn't sell as much as merchandise but mainstream appeal, crowd reactions, PPV buyrates, house show attendance, live gates, TV ratings ect were. WWF had its best financial year in 2000 and Rock was by far the biggest star on the show since Austin was recovering from surgery. When Austin main evented Survivor Series with Triple H that year, it did the lowest buyrate of the year. The only reason Rock's year isn't as much publicized is because Austin's year helped turn the tide in the Monday night Wars while Rock's year came when WCW had already shot themselves in the foot. Look at Rock's star power recently, WrestleMania 28 did the greatest buyrate of all time at a time when wrestling isn't the most popular thing around. I haven't watched it in years and was pretty shocked when I heard about it.