Kareem before Magic.

[AlphaWolf24]

wow...wat a strange thread...

surprisingly people caught feelings..

Internet - berious sisnuss

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Really though?

[Pointguard]

There are threads on this board like this...then we wonder why in the NBA All Time list LeBron is at 11 etc.

Not surprised at all.

How Ironic???

If you read this thread you would see that Lebron earned the franchise label because he could take a last place team to the conference finals (and even the finals)and win two rounds consistently. If Lebron had lost like Kareem, in an era where there was no other great players, Lebron wouldn't be a franchise player. And Kareem was in his prime. But there's no room for the argument. So don't be surprised, there are things in the mirror and your dome, that you don't understand.

[Odinn]

Kareem between the great PGs.
Kobe between the great bigs.
Shaq between the great guards.
Jordan before Pippen.

[Legends66NBA7]

If you read this thread you would see that Lebron earned the franchise label because he could take a last place team to the conference finals (and even the finals)and win two rounds consistently.

So did Kareem.

Kareem won a title with a 3rd year expansion team and came one game away from winning another title in 1974. That's better than what LeBron did with the Cavs.

If Lebron had lost like Kareem, in an era where there was no other great players, Lebron wouldn't be a franchise player.

LeBron and Kareem are both franchise players, regardless of what happens about winning.

[Pointguard]

Kareem between the great PGs.
Kobe between the great bigs.
Shaq between the great guards.
Jordan before Pippen.

You will rank a player high because he won chips but have no system at all for calculating how one player might have had a much easier path or how another one might have had another guy (team) totally blocking his path. KG was in a stacked Western Conference while his management totally sucked but you really don't have a system to calculate simple things much less injuries, management, greatly constructed teams and such. Karl Malone wins two chips if he wasn't a contemporary of MJ - one of the games best winners. So Karl can't attain a top twenty status that would perhaps be top nine if MJ wasn't there.

Duncan runs into Shaq and Kobe together on a couple of his runs and who knows how to factor that in? But when there is no other great around, no team that is even consistently good, its wrong to say Kareem should win. So your second best player has some severe handicap going on? So Rick Barry without help so should be able to do what Kareem couldn't.

[Bigsmoke]

why thats a good question

was the best player in the 70's was a franchise player?

[Pointguard]

So did Kareem.

Kareem won a title with a 3rd year expansion team and came one game away from winning another title in 1974. That's better than what LeBron did with the Cavs.

LeBron and Kareem are both franchise players, regardless of what happens about winning.

All I'm saying is that great players max out opportunities. From '75 to '79 its hard to identify a franchise player and it was a great opportunity for any great to separate himself. Opposition is weak, no team consistently wins, no player puts his mark on the game. If Rick Barry can do it alone than most of the top 20 GOAT list could do it alone. If Lebron had not gotten out of the first round this board would have dogged him to no end and this is an era with probably six or seven on people ranked very high on the GOAT list and some real franchises.

[Ne 1]

From '75 to '79 its hard to identify a franchise player and it was a great opportunity for any great to separate himself.

1975- The team was just 3-14 without Kareem, but 35-30 with him.

1976- Kareem joined a team that had gone 30-52 and he improved them by 10 wins, but due to a ridiculous format that saw teams 38-44 and 36-46 records make the playoffs, Kareem missed the playoffs, despite his team being better than either of those.

1977- He didn't have a strong cast to begin with so the injuries really hurt. Kareem played out of his mind during the playoffs, but the team was exposed as a one man team like LeBron's 2009 Cavs. Go watch the 3 playoff games available from this run. Kareem averaged 35/18/4/4 on 61% shooting in the playoffs.

1978- The team started off something like 8-13 without Kareem, yet they ended up 45-37, this should show how great Kareem is and how average this cast was. His playoff numbers were again atleast as good as his regular season numbers or better. He averaged 27/14/4/4 on 52% shooting in the playoffs. The only thing that stands out is his unusually poor FT% in the playoffs(56%).

1979- This team seriously lacked a power forward which forced Jamaal Wilkes and Adrian Dantley to play the position. Dantley turned into a great scorer, but at this point, he wasn't as great at that yet, and Dantley was a guy who wasn't exactly a well-rounded versatile player. Their backcourt got lit up by Seattle's as well. Adding Jim Chones and Spencer Haywood in 1980 solved their problems at power forward while Magic gave them more talent and Michael Cooper helped them defensively, that made them a much more well rounded team. But Kareem still raised his game in the playoffs averaging 29/13/5/4 on 58% shooting.

Kareem was stuck on mediocre teams for a lot of the 70s decade, and some seasons when he wasn't, like in 1974, a key player missed the entire playoffs.

The fact that he turned the Bucks around so well and carried them so far in '74. He didn't play up to his standards in '72 and '73, but again, one of those losses was to a 69-13 team. And of course, the '75 team sucked without him. A good cast doesn't go 3-14 without their best player.

With the Lakers? I can't see one season from '76-'79 where Kareem should've won a title. He didn't have a chance in '76 due to the ridiculous format, he played incredible basketball in '77 and he got no help. Of course the mediocrity of his cast was again exposed in '78 when he missed an extended period of time for one of the few times in his career and not having a legit PF who can play defense and rebound in '79 as well as his backcourt getting lit up is hardly his fault.

[Pointguard]

why thats a good question

was the best player in the 70's was a franchise player?

Read up on your history. Franchise is a business term. Not who is the best player which I already admitted several times in this post. The league was suffering at the time as well. As Nique posted earlier, was Kareem the face of the team? Were the Laker's convinced he was worth the investment, like say Magie???

Kareem didn't get the franchise contract - Magic got that six years after Kareem had a chance to prove himself. Lightbulb moment for you guys who aren't reading the thread.

Wilt and Russell made the game the nation's number two sport in the nation. After they left the ship was sinking. No player, was capable of carrying the league and there was no player carrying their team with any success. On Kareem's watch football and Boxing had moved ahead of Basketball in a short seven year span. Who was the successful franchise???

[Pointguard]

1975- The team was just 3-14 without Kareem, but 35-30 with him.

1976- Kareem joined a team that had gone 30-52 and he improved them by 10 wins, but due to a ridiculous format that saw teams 38-44 and 36-46 records make the playoffs, Kareem missed the playoffs, despite his team being better than either of those.

1977- He didn't have a strong cast to begin with so the injuries really hurt. Kareem played out of his mind during the playoffs, but the team was exposed as a one man team like LeBron's 2009 Cavs. Go watch the 3 playoff games available from this run. Kareem averaged 35/18/4/4 on 61% shooting in the playoffs.

1978- The team started off something like 8-13 without Kareem, yet they ended up 45-37, this should show how great Kareem is and how average this cast was. His playoff numbers were again atleast as good as his regular season numbers or better. He averaged 27/14/4/4 on 52% shooting in the playoffs. The only thing that stands out is his unusually poor FT% in the playoffs(56%).

1979- This team seriously lacked a power forward which forced Jamaal Wilkes and Adrian Dantley to play the position. Dantley turned into a great scorer, but at this point, he wasn't as great at that yet, and Dantley was a guy who wasn't exactly a well-rounded versatile player. Their backcourt got lit up by Seattle's as well. Adding Jim Chones and Spencer Haywood in 1980 solved their problems at power forward while Magic gave them more talent and Michael Cooper helped them defensively, that made them a much more well rounded team. But Kareem still raised his game in the playoffs averaging 29/13/5/4 on 58% shooting.

Kareem was stuck on mediocre teams for a lot of the 70s decade, and some seasons when he wasn't, like in 1974, a key player missed the entire playoffs.

The fact that he turned the Bucks around so well and carried them so far in '74. He didn't play up to his standards in '72 and '73, but again, one of those losses was to a 69-13 team. And of course, the '75 team sucked without him. A good cast doesn't go 3-14 without their best player.

With the Lakers? I can't see one season from '76-'79 where Kareem should've won a title. He didn't have a chance in '76 due to the ridiculous format, he played incredible basketball in '77 and he got no help. Of course the mediocrity of his cast was again exposed in '78 when he missed an extended period of time for one of the few times in his career and not having a legit PF who can play defense and rebound in '79 as well as his backcourt getting lit up is hardly his fault.

Good Post Ne

It wasn't the best of situations, I agree. But I will add who are you saying had it good? In all honesty I would take all of those teams over Rick Barry's championship squad. That time period it was wide open.

In '78 and '79 Kareem was really falling out of favor with people because of his lack of hustle and lack of concentration and concern.

[BlueandGold]

Not sure if serious... Kareem has literally won on every level before Magic arrived, winning state titles, 3 NCAA titles (or was it 4? too lazy to look up =/) as well as an NBA championship his first couple of seasons in the league..

a better question would be: what's the agenda of the OP in asking this question?

[Pointguard]

Not sure if serious... Kareem has literally won on every level before Magic arrived, winning state titles, 3 NCAA titles (or was it 4? too lazy to look up =/) as well as an NBA championship his first couple of seasons in the league..

a better question would be: what's the agenda of the OP in asking this question?

My agenda is for you to think.

[DKLaker]

My agenda is for you to think.

Obviously you are either incredibly ignorant or a little kid using his mommy's computer. Any sane person that watched basketball during the 70's thinks you should STFU.

[Pointguard]

Obviously you are either incredibly ignorant or a little kid using his mommy's computer. Any sane person that watched basketball during the 70's thinks you should STFU.

well you just exposed your other screen-name. Actually the only guys that watched in the 70's, and participated in this thread, agreed with me - read the thread.