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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    Quote Originally Posted by oolalaa


    Why did Wilt lead the league in assists? Was it because his was just that good? No! It was because he made it a goal of his, to the detriment of his scoring.

    Like ive said to you before - from what ive seen, Wilts playmaking/passing involved getting the ball with his back to the basket 10-12 feet out, waiting for a teammate to run through a couple of screens (whilst doing his 1-handed round the head ball fake) then dumping the ball off and watching said teammate drain a 15 foot jumper.

    When you consider the pace of the league in the mid 60s, and the fact that he played almost every minute of every game, it's not hard to see why he put up such impressive apg numbers.

    Wilt was a great passing Centre - one of the greatest of all time, but he was not "EASILY the greatest passing center in NBA history". That distinction goes to Bill Walton.
    Here again, the "Wilt-bashers" ignore REALITY. "To the detriment of his scoring?" So, a 24.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, 8.6 apg, .595 FG% season, on a team that RAN AWAY with the best record in the league makes "not hard to see why he put up such impressive numbers."

    And that was on the heels of a 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg, .683 season, in which he led the Sixers to a 68-13 record, and a dominating world-title.

    And yet I am supposed to believe that Walton was a better passer???

    The REALITY was, Chamberlain's 66-67 and 67-68 seasons, in league that were MORE DIFFICULT to get assists, were LIGHT-YEARS ahead of Walton's BEST regular seasons, and his best POST-SEASONS.

    And once again, take Wilt's 66-67 and 67-68 seasons, and put them in the mid-80's, when it was FAR easier to get an assist and to SHOOT efficiently, and Wilt's overall numbers would have been off the charts. He would have been a 20-18-10 player, and on just staggering FG%'s of perhaps as high as .735. Not to mention that he would have blown away Eaton's 5.6 bpg mark, as well.

    Once again...there was Wilt and his astonishing 7.8 apg and 8.6 apg seasons, on teams that were MILES ahead of the next best team...

    and then there are the many other good passing centers who averaged 4-5 apg in their best seasons.

    In one of the three post-seasons that Walton played in, in a championship run, he averaged 18.2 ppg, 15.2 rpg, 5.5 apg, on .507 shooting. In Wilt's first championship run, he averaged 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.2 apg, and shot .579 (while crushing Russell and Thurmond.) Just LIGHT YEARS ahead of Walton's BEST post-season.

    And ONLY Wilt would take a hit for a drop in his scoring. He was accused of being selfish when he was scoring 45-50 ppg with rosters that couldn't make a YMCA league, and with teammates that collectively struggled to shoot 40%. Then, when he hangs a 33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, .540 , 5.2 apg season, on a team that was the best in the league...he gets the blame with a 28 ppg, 30 rpg, .509 post-season (and against Russell), while his teammates collectively shoot .352 in that post-season.

    And now he gets ripped for dropping to a 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg, .683 season, and anchoring arguably the greatest team of all-time????
    Last edited by jlauber; 12-24-2011 at 05:17 PM.

  2. #32
    Local High School Star hkfosho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    vlade divac was a better passer than all of the aforementioned players. He played in an evolutionalized league of highly skilled players unlike walton and chamberlain. Just watch those old footages, look how slow paced their games were and fundamentally lacking those players were.

  3. #33
    NBA All-star chazzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    Quote Originally Posted by hkfosho
    vlade divac was a better passer than all of the aforementioned players. He played in an evolutionalized league of highly skilled players unlike walton and chamberlain. Just watch those old footages, look how slow paced their games were and fundamentally lacking those players were.
    What??

  4. #34
    Local High School Star hkfosho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    Quote Originally Posted by chazzy
    What??
    Ok let's be real here, if you took prime walton and chamberlain and put them into this era with the skills that they developed during that era, do you honestly think they would show such HOF-esque performances?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybv618uKanM

    What the hell is that?

    You compare that game to something like this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY06eaFaplw

    and everything seems so much more crisp; the footwork, the defense/offense setup, the pace of the game, even the goddamn attire their wearing. You put a prime Walton with his stupid short-shorts in that game and he'll be looking like Omer Asik.
    Last edited by hkfosho; 12-24-2011 at 05:17 PM.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    these comparison threads are all ****ing pathetic

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    Quote Originally Posted by hkfosho
    Ok let's be real here, if you took prime walton and chamberlain and put them into this era with the skills that they developed during that era, do you honestly think they would show such HOF-esque performances?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybv618uKanM

    What the hell is that?

    You compare that game to something like this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY06eaFaplw

    and everything seems so much more crisp; the footwork, the defense/offense setup, the pace of the game, even the goddamn attire their wearing. You put a prime Walton with his stupid short-shorts in that game and he'll be looking like Omer Asik.
    That was a 28 year old Kareem scoring 30 points against Walton.

    Of course, a 38 year old Kareem just SHELLED Hakeem and Ewing within a few days of each other. He outscored Hakeem, 46-18 (one of THREE 40+ point games he plastered Hakeem with), and then followed that up with a 40-9 beatdown of Ewing.

    And a PRIME Kareem shot FAR worse against an OLD Chamberlain and Thurmond in the early 70's. In fact, both OUTPLAYED Kareem in playoff series in the early 70's. And a near-prime Kareem was outplayed by Moses in both the '81 and '83 post-seasons.

    Now, keep in mind that a prime Hakeem battled a young Shaq to a near-draw in the '95 Finals, too.

    So, let's connect the dots...Thurmond and Wilt battled a PRIME Kareem to a draw. Kareem outplayed Walton, but those that witnessed that series would claim that it was close. And Moses outplayed Kareem in their two H2H post-seasons.

    And yet an OLD OLD Kareem carpet-bombed the likes of Ewing and Hakeem. In fact, neither could guard him AT ALL. Both Ewing and Hakeem went on to be considered the best centers of the 90's, and Hakeem basically held his own with a Shaq, who would go on to just crush the NBA in the 00's.

    Now, if you are willing to claim that players like Shaq, Hakeem, and Ewing wouldn't be worth a crap in today's NBA...then I might agree that Walton, Moses, Thurmond, Kareem, and Wilt probably wouldn't be worth a damn either.

    But, otherwise....
    Last edited by jlauber; 12-24-2011 at 05:33 PM.

  7. #37
    Local High School Star hkfosho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    Quote Originally Posted by MooseJuiceBowen
    these comparison threads are all ****ing pathetic
    Exactly. Why would you even compare players from different eras? Fvcking stupid.

  8. #38
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer Smoke117's Avatar
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    Quote Originally Posted by hkfosho
    vlade divac was a better passer than all of the aforementioned players. He played in an evolutionalized league of highly skilled players unlike walton and chamberlain. Just watch those old footages, look how slow paced their games were and fundamentally lacking those players were.
    lol, Sabonis was a much better passer than Divacs so even if these older players weren't better, the best passing center of all time certainly wouldn't be Vlade, it would be Sabas.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke117
    lol, Sabonis was a much better passer than Divacs so even if these older players weren't better, the best passing center of all time certainly wouldn't be Vlade, it would be Sabas.
    I aint disagreein, he's definitely a great passer. Much flashier for sure.

  10. #40
    I eat cheese oolalaa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    Quote Originally Posted by jlauber
    Here again, the "Wilt-bashers" ignore REALITY. "To the detriment of his scoring?" So, a 24.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, 8.6 apg, .595 FG% season, on a team that RAN AWAY with the best record in the league makes "not hard to see why he put up such impressive numbers."

    And that was on the heels of a 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg, .683 season, in which he led the Sixers to a 68-13 record, and a dominating world-title.

    And yet I am supposed to believe that Walton was a better passer???

    The REALITY was, Chamberlain's 66-67 and 67-68 seasons, in league that were MORE DIFFICULT to get assists, were LIGHT-YEARS ahead of Walton's BEST regular seasons, and his best POST-SEASONS.

    And once again, take Wilt's 66-67 and 67-68 seasons, and put them in the mid-80's, when it was FAR easier to get an assist and to SHOOT efficiently, and Wilt's overall numbers would have been off the charts. He would have been a 20-18-10 player, and on just staggering FG%'s of perhaps as high as .735. Not to mention that he would have blown away Eaton's 5.6 bpg mark, as well.

    Once again...there was Wilt and his astonishing 7.8 apg and 8.6 apg seasons, on teams that were MILES ahead of the next best team...

    and then there are the many other good passing centers who averaged 4-5 apg in their best seasons.

    In one of the three post-seasons that Walton played in, in a championship run, he averaged 18.2 ppg, 15.2 rpg, 5.5 apg, on .507 shooting. In Wilt's first championship run, he averaged 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.2 apg, and shot .579 (while crushing Russell and Thurmond.) Just LIGHT YEARS ahead of Walton's BEST post-season.

    And ONLY Wilt would take a hit for a drop in his scoring. He was accused of being selfish when he was scoring 45-50 ppg with rosters that couldn't make a YMCA league, and with teammates that collectively struggled to shoot 40%. Then, when he hangs a 33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, .540 , 5.2 apg season, on a team that was the best in the league...he gets the blame with a 28 ppg, 30 rpg, .509 post-season (and against Russell), while his teammates collectively shoot .352 in that post-season.

    And now he gets ripped for dropping to a 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg, .683 season, and anchoring arguably the greatest team of all-time????
    1. Please don't insinuate that i am a 'Wilt basher', it's insulting to me, especially when i ended my post with "Wilt was a great passing Centre - one of the greatest of all time". I try to be as objective as i possibly can.

    You on the other hand are basing Wilt's passing skills by the amount of assists he averaged per game. And even then you have failed to acknowledge the difference in era (yes, assists were supposedly a little harder to come by in the 60s but there were more posessions too) and the amount of minutes he played per game. Incidentally, i find it funny that you decided to put Wilt in the mid 80s rather than the mid 70s (Waltons era). They werent giving away assists in the 70s like they were in the 80s.

    2. Are you really so fanatical about Wilt that you won't even admit his quest to lead the league in assists hindered the amount of points he was able to score??

    He went from 33.5 ppg in 1965/66 to 24.1 ppg in 66/67 (the season in which his apg took a dramatic spike). That's a 9.4 ppg drop off in one season!! 9.4 ppg!!! In one season!!! But of course, my comment about his scoring taking a hit because of his increased unselfishness is ludicrous. I MUST be a Wilt hater.

    Edit:

    Oh and btw. I mistakenly thought that Wilt led the league in apg in 67/68. He actually was a distant second to Oscar and a distant 3rd to his favourite point guard and old teammate Guy Rodgers the year before. His 'assist title' you mentioned in the same sentence with 'cryingoutloud' was won because he played an absurd amount of minutes
    Last edited by oolalaa; 12-24-2011 at 07:08 PM.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    Quote Originally Posted by oolalaa
    1. Please don't insinuate that i am a 'Wilt basher', it's insulting to me, especially when i ended my post with "Wilt was a great passing Centre - one of the greatest of all time". I try to be as objective as i possibly can.

    You on the other hand are basing Wilt's passing skills by the amount of assists he averaged per game. And even then you have failed to acknowledge the difference in era (yes, assists were supposedly a little harder to come by in the 60s but there were more posessions too) and the amount of minutes he played per game. Incidentally, i find it funny that you decided to put Wilt in the mid 80s rather than the mid 70s (Waltons era). They werent giving away assists in the 70s like they were in the 80s.

    2. Are you really so fanatical about Wilt that you won't even admit his quest to lead the league in assists hindered the amount of points he was able to score??

    He went from 33.5 ppg in 1965/66 to 24.1 ppg in 66/67 (the season in which his apg took a dramatic spike). That's a 9.4 ppg drop off in one season!! 9.4 ppg!!! In one season!!! But of course, my comment about his scoring taking a hit because of his increased unselfishness is ludicrous. I MUST be a Wilt hater.

    Edit:

    Oh and btw. I mistakenly thought that Wilt led the league in apg in 67/68. He actually was a distant second to Oscar and a distant 3rd to his favourite point guard and old teammate Guy Rodgers the year before. His 'assist title' you mentioned in the same sentence with 'cryingoutloud' was won because he played an absurd amount of minutes
    First of all, you weren't being "objective" when YOU claimed that "that distinction goes to Walton." Now you tell me...just what the hell is that based on? Because YOU think he was making BETTER passes that a Chamberlain who had seasons in which he nearly DOUBLED Walton's assists?

    Look, I was a HUGE fan of Walton. I have long claimed that his '73 NCAA Finals was the greatest college game ever played by an individual. And yes, he was a brilliant passer. BUT, just as in my example of John Stockton...the numbers don't lie. Stockton was seldom a "flashy" passer, but he was a deadly accurate one. Chamberlain was a GREAT passer. And no, he was not just passing to an open shooter who was burying 15 footers. He was lobbing passes over double-teams, and making behind-the-back passes, to cutters who were scoring on easy layups.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

    Watch the above video from about the 5:45 mark on. (In fact, I would encourage those that have not seen it, to watch the entire video.)

    And please, why do so many here punish Chamberlain because he was playing 45-48 mpg? I have said it before, but had Wilt "only" played around 40-42 mpg in his career, just how much more EFFICIENT would he have been, especially late in the seasons? And perhaps he would not have shredded his knee in '69 had he been allowed to "pace" himself earlier in his career.

    Of course, the "anti-Chamberlain clan" will immediately point out that Wilt took himself out of a game seven, with about five minutes left. However, they will never mention that he asked to go back in within a couple of minutes, and his idiotic coach refused. The blatant-lying Bill Simmons jumped all over that in his book. BUT, he forgot to mention that Wilt played FIVE straight games in the '68 ECF's with an ASSORTMENT of injuries, including a tear in his calf muscle (a similar injury which kept the "heroic" Reed out of one complete Finals game, and out of major portions of two more.) Or that Wilt played with one badly sprained wrist in the clinching game five of the '72 Finals. Oh, and BTW, his other wrist was FRACTURED. So, not only did Wilt PLAY with those two injuries...unlike the statue Reed, who stumbled around for 27 minutes and put up a 4-3 game in game seven of the '70 Finals...Wilt DOMINATED the game with a 24 point, 29 rebound, 9 block game. Now, keep in mind that Kareem missed CHUNKS of TWO separate seasons with a broken wrist (and he also missed a clinching game six Finals' game on the road with a sprained ankle.) Yet, if Wilt missed TWO MINUTES of a game...well, he was "faking it."

    As ALWAYS, Wilt was in a no-win situation. If he scored 45-50 ppg, he was selfish (despite the fact that it was his COACH who encouraged it.) If he had a 34-25-5 season, as in '66, and in doing so, he led them to the best record in the league...BUT, if his teammates blew chunks in the playoffs...well, it must have been Chamberlain's fault. After all, he was a "loser" and a "choker."

    And then, even YOU, made the comment that when he was PASSING the ball, it was cutting into his scoring. And then he gets BLAMED because he was "only" passing to lead the league in assists. Never mind that he was STILL scoring 24 ppg, grabbing 24 rpg, and shooting .595...all on a team that had the best record in the league. And all of that on the heels of a season in which he went 24-24-8 .683, and led his team to an overwhelming title.

    It just amazes me. If he scored 45-50 ppg, he was a selfish "stats-padder." BUT, if his scoring dropped, even slightly, in the post-season...well that proves that he was a "stats-padder" and a "choker." And, if he led the league in assists (and STILL scored 24 ppg), he was doing so for "selfish" reasons. Even though his team's obliterated the league in the process. BTW, in that 67-68 season, Chamberlain had FOUR games with 52 points, 53 points, 53 points (along with 32 rebounds, 14 assists, and on 24-29 shooting), and a 68 point game (with 37 rebounds.) So, it was pretty obvious to all that actually played in that season, that had Chamberlain been so inclined, he would have led the league in scoring.

    If he played 48 mpg, again, he was doing so only for the purpose of "stats-padding." BUT, if he did come out for two minutes...well, he was a "choker", and a "faker." He has to be the ONLY athlete to ever get ripped for playing nearly every minute of every game. Even late in his career, when he was certainly not shooting nearly as much, he was among the leaders in mpg. And very few acknowledge the FACT that Wilt averaged 47.2 mpg in his post-season CAREER, and covering 160 games.

    Once again, if any other player would have had a 24-24-9 season, while leading the league in FG% (as well as Win Shares, and Defensive Win Shares)...well they would still be talking about it as one of the greatest seasons ever. I still occasionally read those that bring up Magic's '81-82 season, when he nearly averaged a triple-double with an 18.6 ppg, 9.6 rpg, and 9.5 apg season (on .537 shooting)...but when Chamberlain had a 24.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, 8.6 apg, .595 season...well, he was "selfish." And, once again, had Wilt been fortunate enough to have played in the 80's, and he might very well have had a 10+ apg season (and he would surely have shot a mind-numbing FG%, too.)

    And ONLY Wilt would get ridiculed when he was doing so, while leading his team to the BEST RECORD in the league.

    Just more examples of the Wilt DOUBLE STANDARD. No matter what he did, it was never enough.
    Last edited by jlauber; 12-24-2011 at 10:37 PM.

  12. #42
    I eat cheese oolalaa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    Quote Originally Posted by jlauber
    First of all, you weren't being "objective" when YOU claimed that "that distinction goes to Walton." Now you tell me...just what the hell is that based on? Because YOU think he was making BETTER passes that a Chamberlain who had seasons in which he nearly DOUBLED Walton's assists?

    Look, I was a HUGE fan of Walton. I have long claimed that his '73 NCAA Finals was the greatest college game ever played by an individual. And yes, he was a brilliant passer. BUT, just as in my example of John Stockton...the numbers don't lie. Stockton was seldom a "flashy" passer, but he was a deadly accurate one. Chamberlain was a GREAT passer. And no, he was not just passing to an open shooter who was burying 15 footers. He was lobbing passes over double-teams, and making behind-the-back passes, to cutters who were scoring on easy layups.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

    Watch the above video from about the 5:45 mark on. (In fact, I would encourage those that have not seen it, to watch the entire video.)

    And please, why do so many here punish Chamberlain because he was playing 45-48 mpg? I have said it before, but had Wilt "only" played around 40-42 mpg in his career, just how much more EFFICIENT would he have been, especially late in the seasons? And perhaps he would not have shredded his knee in '69 had he been allowed to "pace" himself earlier in his career.

    Of course, the "anti-Chamberlain clan" will immediately point out that Wilt took himself out of a game seven, with about five minutes left. However, they will never mention that he asked to go back in within a couple of minutes, and his idiotic coach refused. The blatant-lying Bill Simmons jumped all over that in his book. BUT, he forgot to mention that Wilt played FIVE straight games in the '68 ECF's with an ASSORTMENT of injuries, including a tear in his calf muscle (a similar injury which kept the "heroic" Reed out of one complete Finals game, and out of major portions of two more.) Or that Wilt played with one badly sprained wrist in the clinching game five of the '72 Finals. Oh, and BTW, his other wrist was FRACTURED. So, not only did Wilt PLAY with those two injuries...unlike the statue Reed, who stumbled around for 27 minutes and put up a 4-3 game in game seven of the '70 Finals...Wilt DOMINATED the game with a 24 point, 29 rebound, 9 block game. Now, keep in mind that Kareem missed CHUNKS of TWO separate seasons with a broken wrist (and he also missed a clinching game six Finals' game on the road with a sprained ankle.) Yet, if Wilt missed TWO MINUTES of a game...well, he was "faking it."

    As ALWAYS, Wilt was in a no-win situation. If he scored 45-50 ppg, he was selfish (despite the fact that it was his COACH who encouraged it.) If he had a 34-25-5 season, as in '66, and in doing so, he led them to the best record in the league...BUT, if his teammates blew chunks in the playoffs...well, it must have been Chamberlain's fault. After all, he was a "loser" and a "choker."

    And then, even YOU, made the comment that when he was PASSING the ball, it was cutting into his scoring. And then he gets BLAMED because he was "only" passing to lead the league in assists. Never mind that he was STILL scoring 24 ppg, grabbing 24 rpg, and shooting .595...all on a team that had the best record in the league. And all of that on the heels of a season in which he went 24-24-8 .683, and led his team to an overwhelming title.

    It just amazes me. If he scored 45-50 ppg, he was a selfish "stats-padder." BUT, if his scoring dropped, even slightly, in the post-season...well that proves that he was a "stats-padder" and a "choker." And, if he led the league in assists (and STILL scored 24 ppg), he was doing so for "selfish" reasons. Even though his team's obliterated the league in the process. BTW, in that 67-68 season, Chamberlain had FOUR games with 52 points, 53 points, 53 points (along with 32 rebounds, 14 assists, and on 24-29 shooting), and a 68 point game (with 37 rebounds.) So, it was pretty obvious to all that actually played in that season, that had Chamberlain been so inclined, he would have led the league in scoring.

    If he played 48 mpg, again, he was doing so only for the purpose of "stats-padding." BUT, if he did come out for two minutes...well, he was a "choker", and a "faker." He has to be the ONLY athlete to ever get ripped for playing nearly every minute of every game. Even late in his career, when he was certainly not shooting nearly as much, he was among the leaders in mpg. And very few acknowledge the FACT that Wilt averaged 47.2 mpg in his post-season CAREER, and covering 160 games.

    Once again, if any other player would have had a 24-24-9 season, while leading the league in FG% (as well as Win Shares, and Defensive Win Shares)...well they would still be talking about it as one of the greatest seasons ever. I still occasionally read those that bring up Magic's '81-82 season, when he nearly averaged a triple-double with an 18.6 ppg, 9.6 rpg, and 9.5 apg season (on .537 shooting)...but when Chamberlain had a 24.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, 8.6 apg, .595 season...well, he was "selfish." And, once again, had Wilt been fortunate enough to have played in the 80's, and he might very well have had a 10+ apg season (and he would surely have shot a mind-numbing FG%, too.)

    And ONLY Wilt would get ridiculed when he was doing so, while leading his team to the BEST RECORD in the league.

    Just more examples of the Wilt DOUBLE STANDARD. No matter what he did, it was never enough.
    Okay, some clarification...

    I have a problm with you saying that Chamberlain was EASILY the greatest passing centre in NBA history & that it's not even close. Wilt certainly has a legitimate case to be the greatest, and i wouldn't quarrel too much with someone who genuinely thought so, but, frankly, it's ridiculous to suggest that he was MILES better than Walton. That shows extreme ignorance and/or bias. I think i know which it is in your case.

    When i said - 'that distinction goes to bill Walton', i was saying that in my opinion Walton is the greatest passing big man ever. I didn't mean that he was EASILY the best like you have claimed Wilt was.

    The biggest reason i consider him to be the greatest passing big man ever was beacuse of his outlet passing (probably the greatest outlet passer the league has ever seen. Wes Unseld was supposedly great as well though). You very rarely get an assist for an outlet pass but a great one can lead to a 2on2 or 2on1 fastbreak. It is one of the most underrated aspects of a big mans game and something i havn't seen Wilt do much of in all the videos ive seen of him.


    With regards to wilt's minutes - i have never bashed Wilt for playing almost every minute of every game (and who would?). It was great that he could play that many minutes without getting tired (or at least not as tired as most players would) BUT, and it's a big but, his stats were inflated as a consequence. This is undeniable.

    He became a 'stat padder' as a bi-product of the minutes he played. He was selfish beacuse he was shooting the ball 30+ times a game, regardless of whether it was encouraged by his coach or not. He WAS a selfish stat padder early on in his career, even though it may not have been intentional.
    I don't blame Wilt for not not winning a championship in his first 6 years. He didn't have the teammates to overcome Boston and i doubt that him playing more unselfishly would have made much difference.

    I do blame him for not winning in '66, '68, '69 and '70 though. In my opinion, he had a good enough team around him to win 3 or 4 more rings. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT HIS INJURIES. I care about how he performed. I care that he he had a good enough team to win in '66, as shown by the very next season, but was still in his "i'm gunna pour in as many points as i can and hope it's enough to win" mode. I care that in '68 he blew a 3-1 lead to Boston in the ECFs. I care that he had a pathetic post season in '69. I care that he lost ANOTHER game 7 in '70.

    Wilt was/is the most talented player the league has ever seen. That doesn't make him the best though. He was good enough to get you to game 7s against the great Celtics dynasty. But he was missing something that gets you over the top. Unfortunately, it's looking like Lebron is heading in the same direction
    Last edited by oolalaa; 12-25-2011 at 12:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    Quote Originally Posted by Odinn
    Another 32Dayz classic.
    Duncan konusu gorunce hemen girdim odin burdadir diye ilk sayfada seni goremeyince cok sasirdim ama 2. sayfada odinn ismini gorunce yanilmadigimi gordum.

    Reyizsin odinn

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    Quote Originally Posted by oolalaa
    Okay, some clarification...

    I have a problm with you saying that Chamberlain was EASILY the greatest passing centre in NBA history & that it's not even close. Wilt certainly has a legitimate case to be the greatest, and i wouldn't quarrel too much with someone who genuinely thought so, but, frankly, it's ridiculous to suggest that he was MILES better than Walton. That shows extreme ignorance and/or bias. I think i know which it is in your case.

    When i said - 'that distinction goes to bill Walton', i was saying that in my opinion Walton is the greatest passing big man ever. I didn't mean that he was EASILY the best like you have claimed Wilt was.

    The biggest reason i consider him to be the greatest passing big man ever was beacuse of his outlet passing (probably the greatest outlet passer the league has ever seen. Wes Unseld was supposedly great as well though). You very rarely get an assist for an outlet pass but a great one can lead to a 2on2 or 2on1 fastbreak. It is one of the most underrated aspects of a big mans game and something i havn't seen Wilt do much of in all the videos ive seen of him.


    With regards to wilt's minutes - i have never bashed Wilt for playing almost every minute of every game (and who would?). It was great that he could play that many minutes without getting tired (or at least not as tired as most players would) BUT, and it's a big but, his stats were inflated as a consequence. This is undeniable.

    He became a 'stat padder' as a bi-product of the minutes he played. He was selfish beacuse he was shooting the ball 30+ times a game, regardless of whether it was encouraged by his coach or not. He WAS a selfish stat padder early on in his career, even though it may not have been intentional.
    I don't blame Wilt for not not winning a championship in his first 6 years. He didn't have the teammates to overcome Boston and i doubt that him playing more unselfishly would have made much difference.

    I do blame him for not winning in '66, '68, '69 and '70 though. In my opinion, he had a good enough team around him to win 3 or 4 more rings. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT HIS INJURIES. I care about how he performed. I care that he he had a good enough team to win in '66, as shown by the very next season, but was still in his "i'm gunna pour in as many points as i can and hope it's enough to win" mode. I care that in '68 he blew a 3-1 lead to Boston in the ECFs. I care that he had a pathetic post season in '69. I care that he lost ANOTHER game 7 in '70.

    Wilt was/is the most talented player the league has ever seen. That doesn't make him the best though. He was good enough to get you to game 7s against the great Celtics dynasty. But he was missing something intangible that gets you over the top. Unfortunately, it's looking like Lebron is heading in the same direction
    I have addressed this many times, but here goes again...

    In the '66 regular season, Chamberlain averaged 33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, 5.2 apg, and shot .540, BUT, against Russell in the regular season, he averaged 28.3 ppg and 30.6 rpg. (I couldn't find his regular season FG% against Russell, though.) And, Wilt and his Sixers had the best record in the league. Having said that, though, they had to win their last 11 games to edge out the seven-time defending Celtics by one game. IMHO, Boston was coasting down the stretch, too. Keep in mind that the Celtics had gone 62-18 the season before, and there roster was essentially the same.

    In any case, and one more time, Wilt averaged 28.3 ppg and 30.6 rpg against Boston in the regular season. In the ECF's Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg and 30.2 rpg, and on .509 shooting. How about his teammates? They collectively shot .352. What changed?


    Next, you say that you don't care about HIS injuries, ... which indeed were significant. He was HOBBLED by SEVERAL of them, including a tear in his calf. Once again, Reed had a similar injury in the '70 Finals, and he was basically worthless after it. He missed a half of one game, three-quarters of another, and an entire game in the '70 Finals. It is well documented that Wilt PLAYED the last FIVE games of the '68 ECF's with an assortment of injuries, and was NOTICEABLY limping.

    But, it was not just Wilt injuries, BUT those that affected his teammates. Here again, during the regular season, the 76ers just blew thru the NBA en route to a 62-20 record, and an eight game spread over the Celtics. HOWEVER, in the post-season, they lost HOFer Billy Cunningham before the ECF's to a broken wrist. And even without him, they still forged a 3-1 series lead. Even Red Auerbach all but gave up after that 4th game. Then, BOTH Luke Jackson and Wali Jones sustained leg injuries in game five, and were worthless the rest of the series. And this was a team that basically only went eight deep during the regular season.

    On top of that, in game seven, Chamberlain's teammates did not PASS him the ball. He TOUCHED the ball on the offensive end NINE times in the second half, and only TWICE in the 4th quarter (and both were on offensive rebounds.) The result? His Sixers, with all of the above (no Cunningham, injuries to Jackson and Jones, a hobbled Wilt, and forgetting about Chamberlain in the seventh game),...lost a game seven by a 100-96 score. Now, how do you think that series would have played out had the Sixers been healthy for it? IMHO, it would have been a repeat of the '67 ECF's, when they came within four points, in game four, of SWEEPING Boston (and annihilating the Celtics in game five, en route to a 4-1 series win.) As for Wilt's numbers,...a hobbled Chamberlain averaged 22.1 ppg and 25.1 rpg in that series. AND, even Russell commented that "a lessor player would not have played." (Or basically stating that virtually NO other player would have played under the same conditions.)


    I will be the first to agree that Wilt's '69 playoffs were probably his worst. Of course, he had an incompetent coach, who shackled him for much of the regular season, and virtually all of the playoffs. All anyone needs to know about the idiotic Van Breda Kolf was put forth by this comment during the season, "When we pass the ball into Wilt, he will score. But, it is an ugly offense to watch." And there was never a better exmaple of that, than early in the 4th quarter of game seven of the Finals (which is on YouTube BTW.) Russell picked up his 5th foul at the start of the period, and on the next play, the Lakers went into Wilt, who went right around Russell for an easy basket. It would be about the last time Chamberlain would touch the ball.

    Continued...

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Prime Walton vs Prime Duncan

    Continuing...

    Excuses? They say that excuses are for losers, but it is impossible to ignore the MANY that the '69 Lakers had in the Finals. They were up 2-1 late in game four, and they had both the lead, 88-87, and the ball, with only seconds left. Johnny Egan, who was a pitiful replacement for the off-season losses caused by the Wilt trade, lost the ball...and then Sam Jones, while falling down, hit the game-winning shot. So, instead of LA leading that series, 3-1, it was now 2-2. How significant was that ONE PLAY by Egan? The Lakers blew out Boston in game, in a game in which Wilt pounded Russell, to take a 3-2 series lead. Had Egan been able to hold onto the ball in that game four, LA would have had an easy 4-1 series romp.

    Then there was the play of Baylor. He and West combined for 1-14 shooting in the 4th quarter of a 111-105 game three loss (and Baylor went 1-6 from the line.) In fact, in games three thru five (two losses), Baylor scored a TOTAL of 24 points. This from a player who averaged 24 ppg during the regular season. And, in game seven, Baylor shot 8-22 from the floor, in a two point loss. Over the course of the entire playoffs, Baylor shot a team-WORST .385 from the field.

    And I have already documented the incompetence of the Laker coach. He NEVER had any idea on how to best use Chamberlain, and at times during the regular season, he even BENCHED Chambelain. And it was well known that he didn't like Wilt, either. Of course, he BENCHED Wilt in the last five minutes of that game seven, two-point loss, and it ultimately cost the city of LA there first ever title, ...and it ultimately cost him his NBA coaching career, as well. He was promptly fired after that series. Of course, it was WILT who would get the brunt of the blame. Even though, in that game seven, and in his 43 minutes, Wilt scored 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. His replacement, the great Mel Counts, had a turnover in the last two minutes, and missed a key shot with 29 seconds left,... en route to a 4-13 game.

    And while Wilt was shooting .875 from the floor in that game seven, his teammates collectively shot .360. But, yes, it was Wilt who "choked."


    As for the '70 Finals. It was a MIRACLE that Wilt even PLAYED in that post-season. He shredded his knee in the ninth game of the season, and even the most OPTOMISTIC medical opinion had him out for at least the rest of the season. (Baylor suffered a similar injury in the mid-60's, and it was over a year-and-half before he regained anything close to his former playing level.) There were even some that believed that Wilt's career was over. He was 33, and around 300 lbs, and it was felt that his knee would not hold up to his age or size.

    Remarkably, Wilt DID come back, and despite being nowhere near 100%, he still played well. The "Wilt-bashers: almost never bring up the fact that his Lakers were down 3-1 against Phoenix in the first round of the playoffs, and then Wilt, with games of 30 and 36 points, engineered a stunning comeback, to win that series, 4-3.

    And the Knicks were solid favorites going into the Finals. They had gone a league-best 60-22. They had home court. They had wiped out Kareem's 56-26 Bucks, 4-1. They had FOUR HOFers, all in the primes of their careers, and a HOF coach. They had a much deeper bench than LA, too.

    Still, a hobbled Wilt battled the MVP Reed to a draw in the first four games, and the series was tied 2-2. In game five, Reed went down with his injury, and with NY already down by ten points. However, the Knicks, with major help from the officiating (and this was documented by NY Times writer Leonard Koppett), came back to win that game, 107-100, and take a 3-2 series lead. Wilt and West were so thoroughly manhandled in that game, that they could only combine for FIVE second half shots.

    In a "must-win" game six, Chamberlain exploded for 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds, and the Lakers annihilated the Knicks, 135-113. Of course, very few fans are aware of THAT game in Wilt's career.

    And in game seven, Reed hobbled out, and hit his first two shots. And while everyone remembers that, very few probably know that the ENTIRE Knick team were hitting their shots from all over the floor. They started out 15-21 from the field, and with Frazier finally outplaying West, and with the rest of Wilt's teammates collectively shooting 33.3% in the first half (Chamberlain went 5-10 from the field, with 12 rebounds, albeit 1-8 from the line in that half)...the game was essentially over, and NY led 69-42. The rest of the game was just a matter of playing it out, and NY easily won, 113-99.

    I have long maintained, though, that even a team with five Jordan's would not have beaten the Knicks that game.

    In any case, all Wilt did in that series, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, was post the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 from the floor.) BUT, he was the "choker", while Reed, who basically contributed absolutely NOTHING in the last three games of that series, was the "hero." Oh, and Wilt "the choker" put up a 21 point, 10-16 shooting, 24 rebound game in that game seven....while his teammates, including WEST, were simply AWFUL.


    As for the rest of your post...Wilt was NOT a "stats-padder." If that would have been the case, he would have put the all-time scoring and ppg marks out of reach in the second half of his career. Instead, he did whatever his COACH's asked of him (even the incompetent one's...of which he had a few), and dramatically cut back his shooting.

    And I have always found it interesting that Wilt was labled a "loser" even though he carried several crappy teams to within an eyelash of beating Russell's dynasty...and in fact, he DID beat that dynasty on one occasion. BUT, players like Oscar, Lucas, West, and Baylor...all of whom who routinely lost to that great Celtic dynasty, were considered "unfortunate."

    And, I agree with John Wooden, who claimed that had Wilt been surrounded with Russell's supporting cast his entire career, that he likely would have won all those rings, too.
    Last edited by jlauber; 12-25-2011 at 01:49 PM.

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