What was Kidd like in prime?

[Reggie43]

They definitely beat post Rasheed Pistons that won the title if Kidd didn't get hurt early in that series. And Shaq and Kobe had experienced championship players around them most of their careers. The Pistons with Sheed would not have beaten the Pacers if their two main players, center and point guard, didn't get hurt as well. That year the Pistons were the third best team out East. The next year they were better.

But the Lakers win one game against them. Shaq, Webber and McGrady never flourished out East and had better teams than Kidd did, so they are out of the question. That Nets team was among the worse team in the league the year before with one of the games best PG playing the position. Kidd only had K Mart as a finisher but he had a bad touch, Nets had very inconsistent shooting that was wasn't dependable in the playoffs. No rebounders or rim protectors. He had no other creators on those teams. Remarkably his teams were even worse in the half court. No body making all defensive team but the same team went from 22nd to 5th in defense when Kidd arrived. They weren't big, very talented or great shot makers. And its very different if four or five players played better than they every did with Kidd those years. Kenyon Martain and Richard Jefferson despite being very young rarely, ever had years like that again.

On the reverse side of the coin I can't imagine what Kidd would have done with a team of Anfernee Hardaway, Anderson, Scott, Horace Grant, Koncak, Bowie and Shaw. Or Kobe, Rice, Harper, Fox, Fisher, Horry, AC Green and Shaw. I've always maintained that Duncan was a unique great winner but I am beginning to doubt how much I gave him credit for. Pop just has a great winning way about him. But no, that Nets team needed an engine not players like you named so they definitely don't succeed two years in a row like that. I think every very good player had a much better team than those Nets teams.

So I guess its safe to assume that you think that Kidd was the best player in the league in those two years he made the finals going by your opinion.

Do you really think that three of the top ten players in nba history in Shaq, Duncan and Kobe would have a hard time leading the nets individually given the same supporting cast in the east at that time?

[Reggie43]

McGrady flat out had no chance. I know T-Mac fans get upset with that but his Orlando team was hardly worse than the Nets without Kidd. And they couldn't get out of the first round. Webber, if he took the initiative he took when he first got to Sacramento, could maybe have done something. As far as talent...he's as talented as any PF who's played. And he played the right way, but he lacked conditioning, didn't play hard enough on D (so I guess not completely the right way), and had some issues he never got over. Duncan would have a shot, but Duncan didn't make people better anywhere near what Kidd did. His best advantage would be that he would play C (where they sucked) and a big man is always a difference maker. KG would be right between Duncan and Kidd...a big guy (tho he wouldn't play C) and a guy who excelled at making others better. Shaq would dominate the people he went up against but he wouldn't beat the other team by himself, and he wouldn't make the guys around him better like that.

I think its true that Mcrady and Webber might not be able to pull it off but do you really think that other 4 hall of famers in Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Garnett would have a hard time those years?

Each of those players have won championships as the main guy and you think they wont win the Eastern Championship when the competition was at an alltime low?

[JoshCoward]

I think its true that Mcrady and Webber might not be able to pull it off but do you really think that other 4 hall of famers in Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Garnett would have a hard time those years?

Each of those players have won championships as the main guy and you think they wont win the Eastern Championship when the competition was at an alltime low?

Kobe? No. Not during 2001-2003 years. Yes, he was a great player but he would not fit into that Nets system + lead them to two NBA finals because he wouldn't have been able to fully utilize the players around him at the time + (even though the Eastern Conference was below-par, they had one or two teams that were capable of beating few top Western teams on any given night).

Garnett and Duncan? This is a tough call - the teams that Nets faced during the playoffs consisted of Jermaine O'neal, Antoine Walker, Ben Wallace in C/PF position and Garnett & Duncan would've done well going up against these players but they wouldn't have been able to stop back court players in Reggie Miller (I watched this game many times and Kidd only let Miller get 2 or 3 touches when defending him in 4th Q and OT), Baron Davis, and remember Kidd also matched up well against the Celtics and Pistons (with Celtics, he's averaged TD from my memory). Plus with Duncan, I agree with Pointguard - don't think he'll flourish as much with Byron Scott as he did/does for Pop.

Shaq, I give you. If he was as motivated as he was during those years, he would've led the Nets team to possible Championship.

[Reggie43]

Kobe? No. Not during 2001-2003 years. Yes, he was a great player but he would not fit into that Nets system + lead them to two NBA finals because he wouldn't have been able to fully utilize the players around him at the time + (even though the Eastern Conference was below-par, they had one or two teams that were capable of beating few top Western teams on any given night).

Garnett and Duncan? This is a tough call - the teams that Nets faced during the playoffs consisted of Jermaine O'neal, Antoine Walker, Ben Wallace in C/PF position and Garnett & Duncan would've done well going up against these players but they wouldn't have been able to stop back court players in Reggie Miller (I watched this game many times and Kidd only let Miller get 2 or 3 touches when defending him in 4th Q and OT), Baron Davis, and remember Kidd also matched up well against the Celtics and Pistons (with Celtics, he's averaged TD from my memory).

Shaq, I give you. He would've led the Nets team to possible Championship.

Your opinion of Kobe on the Nets somewhat makes sense but its hard to bet against Bryant not being able to do that given the strength of opposition and him being in his athletic prime.

In regards to Duncan and Garnett, I still maintain my position that they would have done the same given that they were two of the best power forwards in nba history and were in their primes. Garnett and Duncan might have not have the same success against the whole league given the same Nets roster but they certainly would have enough talent to beat those Eastern teams. Do you really think a combination of Duncan/Martin/Jefferson would be beat by the tandems of Pierce/Walker and Ben Wallace/Billups/Hamilton?

Those backcourt players you mentioned were getting their numbers regardless of who were defending them as they did when they faced the nets from what I remember.

[Rake2204]

Your opinion of Kobe on the Nets somewhat makes sense but its hard to bet against Bryant not being able to do that given the strength of opposition and him being in his athletic prime.

In regards to Duncan and Garnett, I still maintain my position that they would have done the same given that they were two of the best power forwards in nba history and were in their primes. Garnett and Duncan might have not have the same success against the whole league given the same Nets roster but they certainly would have enough talent to beat those Eastern teams. Do you really think a combination of Duncan/Martin/Jefferson would be beat by the tandems of Pierce/Walker and Ben Wallace/Billups/Hamilton?

Those backcourt players you mentioned were getting their numbers regardless of who were defending them as they did when they faced the nets from what I remember.

I would question the makeups of these teams (if Duncan or Garnett hypothetically replaced Kidd). I apologize if this was covered in previous posts and I missed it, but who'd be in the backcourt for those Nets teams? Anthony Johnson and Kerry Kittles?

I feel a very large reason the Nets were ever successful is because Jason Kidd's play transformed the on-court product. I believe both Richard Jefferson and Kenyon Martin heavily benefited from Kidd's mere presence, as Jason essentially turned Nets games into controlled track meets, which played right into the strengths of players like Martin and Jefferson. Neither of those players were particularly skilled at creating their own offense. Especially early in their careers, each of those guys tended to score from filling fast break lanes, catching perfect alley-oops, and having the table set by Kidd himself.

In a Duncan/Martin/Jefferson lineup (sans Kidd), I'm not sure a lot would be happening there aside from Duncan doing his usual dominant thing. He'd get his, and he might be able to create a little inside-outside thing with someone like Kerry Kittles, but that team's motor would be gone. With a mediocre point guard running the show, suddenly they'd have been a half court team where Duncan was the focal point and Martin and Jefferson struggled to fill in the blanks. I think Garnett taking Kidd's place would have resulted in something similar (Garnett actually had teams like that in Minnesota).

I just have this feeling that Kidd was someone who was able to take a team like New Jersey - who didn't have a real shot to do much of anything - and found the one way they could be successful at that time (by running, gunning, and working). I think we'd have to find another player with similar attributes to Kidd in order to make that team fully function on the same level. Even when discussing someone like Bryant, he no doubt would have imparted his will on the team, but would his game would have been something that could have transformed the team and maximized his teammates as much as possible? Or would it have been more of a situation where Bryant became frustrated and requested better teammates?

[Kyle_korver]

didnt he shoot like 30 to 40 fg% in his prime

[Whoah10115]

I think its true that Mcrady and Webber might not be able to pull it off but do you really think that other 4 hall of famers in Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Garnett would have a hard time those years?

Each of those players have won championships as the main guy and you think they wont win the Eastern Championship when the competition was at an alltime low?

Shaq is of no use to a bad team. Is he gonna get 30PPG on that team? He'd need to take more shots than he used to, because he had no one to give him the ball. He'd have to do more. If that forced him to take the leadership role that he thinks he took throughout his career, then maybe. But probably not. Shaq is not a guy who is going to excel on a bad team. And Duncan is not that kind of leader. He will make players better but he is not going to be the system all by himself. KG is a maybe.

[Reggie43]

I would question the makeups of these teams (if Duncan or Garnett hypothetically replaced Kidd). I apologize if this was covered in previous posts and I missed it, but who'd be in the backcourt for those Nets teams? Anthony Johnson and Kerry Kittles?

I feel a very large reason the Nets were ever successful is because Jason Kidd's play transformed the on-court product. I believe both Richard Jefferson and Kenyon Martin heavily benefited from Kidd's mere presence, as Jason essentially turned Nets games into controlled track meets, which played right into the strengths of players like Martin and Jefferson. Neither of those players were particularly skilled at creating their own offense. Especially early in their careers, each of those guys tended to score from filling fast break lanes, catching perfect alley-oops, and having the table set by Kidd himself.

In a Duncan/Martin/Jefferson lineup (sans Kidd), I'm not sure a lot would be happening there aside from Duncan doing his usual dominant thing. He'd get his, and he might be able to create a little inside-outside thing with someone like Kerry Kittles, but that team's motor would be gone. With a mediocre point guard running the show, suddenly they'd have been a half court team where Duncan was the focal point and Martin and Jefferson struggled to fill in the blanks. I think Garnett taking Kidd's place would have resulted in something similar (Garnett actually had teams like that in Minnesota).

I just have this feeling that Kidd was someone who was able to take a team like New Jersey - who didn't have a real shot to do much of anything - and found the one way they could be successful at that time (by running, gunning, and working). I think we'd have to find another player with similar attributes to Kidd in order to make that team fully function on the same level. Even when discussing someone like Bryant, he no doubt would have imparted his will on the team, but would his game would have been something that could have transformed the team and maximized his teammates as much as possible? Or would it have been more of a situation where Bryant became frustrated and requested better teammates?

While I dont deny that Kidd made his teammates better the same can be said about Duncan and Garnett. In fact Garnett had much worse teammates which he led to a better record in a much tougher western conference.

Kidd being replaced by either Duncan or Garnett would certainly make those Nets mostly a half court team and Im pretty sure the trio of Martin, Jefferson, Kittles would have adjusted accordingly. Those players would have really benefited from all the open shots that Duncan/Kg would have generated because of being double teamed constantly.

[ChuckOakley]

While I dont deny that Kidd made his teammates better the same can be said about Duncan and Garnett. In fact Garnett had much worse teammates which he led to a better record in a much tougher western conference.

Kidd being replaced by either Duncan or Garnett would certainly make those Nets mostly a half court team and Im pretty sure the trio of Martin, Jefferson, Kittles would have adjusted accordingly. Those players would have really benefited from all the open shots that Duncan/Kg would have generated because of being double teamed constantly.

How would have Martin and Jefferson benefited from open shots?
They were strictly transition players back then. KK was the 2nd best transition player (after Kidd), but he could at least shoot.

That Nets team was a running team and suffered in the half court.

[Tking714]

A lot of you get off on referring to FG% for one of the highest ASSIST leaders of all time. And one of the best Passers the game will ever see.

Seriously. Put two and two together and please figure out why FG% shouldnt matter as much as some of you want it to.

[Reggie43]

Shaq is of no use to a bad team. Is he gonna get 30PPG on that team? He'd need to take more shots than he used to, because he had no one to give him the ball. He'd have to do more. If that forced him to take the leadership role that he thinks he took throughout his career, then maybe. But probably not. Shaq is not a guy who is going to excel on a bad team. And Duncan is not that kind of leader. He will make players better but he is not going to be the system all by himself. KG is a maybe.

I respect your opinions but I have to disagree. I have watched too much of those aforementioned players to think otherwise.

[Pointguard]

So I guess its safe to assume that you think that Kidd was the best player in the league in those two years he made the finals going by your opinion.

Do you really think that three of the top ten players in nba history in Shaq, Duncan and Kobe would have a hard time leading the nets individually given the same supporting cast in the east at that time?

Shaq is definitely out of the question. No he could not do anything with that team. In Shaq's 21 years he never had a team with less talent than the Nets. He never had a team with as bad as shooters as the Nets. He's never had a team with with at least two other creative players - without Kidd the Nets had none. Shaq always had veteran help, For his first 8 years his next two highest scorers average over 15 ppg - that Nets team had none. After that Shaq always played with a top 3 perimeter player when still in his prime. There is no way you are going to tell me that Shaq with less talent, less skilled players, less shooters and and less creative players is going to thrive and make his mark with a bad team. Plus it wasn't a team built around him. No chance.

Kobe was simply too young to handle a young inexperienced team. Duncan and Garnett need a great defensive team to win at that time. On that Nets team their 23ppg at that time would have not been enough even in the East. The Nets' best player played Duncan and Garnett's position so it would be very hard to make Kenyon better. Also the East played a convoluted style that collapsed on people and made it hard on Power Forwards. In general the West Coast PF's like Sheed, Webber, Juwan Howard, Jamison, Elton Brand and Shawn Kemp all had offensive problems in the East - They all shot better and played better out West. Players like Derrick Coleman and Chris Bosh would have better out West as well.

Kidd maximized what was there. He was the best piece to that puzzle. They needed a thinking man's engine for that team and Kidd was the right ticket.

[Reggie43]

How would have Martin and Jefferson benefited from open shots?
They were strictly transition players back then. KK was the 2nd best transition player (after Kidd), but he could at least shoot.

That Nets team was a running team and suffered in the half court.

Nba players are much too skillful to not be able to adjust. If ever either KG/Duncan were double teamed all they have to do is cut to the basket for the free layup or an easy dunk.
Those Nets teams would certainly have been atleast a decent halfcourt team with Duncan/KG replacing Kidd.

[ChuckOakley]

Nba players are much too skillful to not be able to adjust. If ever either KG/Duncan were double teamed all they have to do is cut to the basket for the free layup or an easy dunk.
Those Nets teams would certainly have been atleast a decent halfcourt team with Duncan/KG replacing Kidd.

I don't think so.

Cutting to the hoop and running the court are much different. They also didn't have any 3 point shooting to play half court. They had to play a running game.. I don't think TD or KG have ever played on running teams.

[Reggie43]

Shaq is definitely out of the question. No he could not do anything with that team. In Shaq's 21 years he never had a team with less talent than the Nets. He never had a team with as bad as shooters as the Nets. He's never had a team with with at least two other creative players - without Kidd the Nets had none. Shaq always had veteran help, For his first 8 years his next two highest scorers average over 15 ppg - that Nets team had none. After that Shaq always played with a top 3 perimeter player when still in his prime. There is no way you are going to tell me that Shaq with less talent, less skilled players, less shooters and and less creative players is going to thrive and make his mark with a bad team. Plus it wasn't a team built around him. No chance.

Kobe was simply too young to handle a young inexperienced team. Duncan and Garnett need a great defensive team to win at that time. On that Nets team their 23ppg at that time would have not been enough even in the East. The Nets' best player played Duncan and Garnett's position so it would be very hard to make Kenyon better. Also the East played a convoluted style that collapsed on people and made it hard on Power Forwards. In general the West Coast PF's like Sheed, Webber, Juwan Howard, Jamison, Elton Brand and Shawn Kemp all had offensive problems in the East - They all shot better and played better out West. Players like Derrick Coleman and Chris Bosh would have better out West as well.

Kidd maximized what was there. He was the best piece to that puzzle. They needed a thinking man's engine for that team and Kidd was the right ticket.

All I am asking is do they have enough to beat the teams Kidd beat to make the finals those 2 years and to me the answer is yes. Walker/Pierce Celtics and the Pre-Rasheed Pistons have no chance of stopping a Prime Shaq from scoring regardless of who his teammates were given that they could atleast throw a proper entry pass to the post.