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Old 03-15-2011, 07:53 AM   #1
Stuckey
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Default debunking christianity/religion

my super christian friend is telling me the prophecy of revelations, it's pretty interesting

what do atheists say about all the prophecies that came true, and likely to come true in the future? how do you contend that, or were those prophecies written after they came true?
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:57 AM   #2
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

You can't debunk nor prove it.
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:59 AM   #3
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

that's sad, my faith in jesus is only due to pascal's wager
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Old 03-15-2011, 08:59 AM   #4
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuckey
what do atheists say about all the prophecies that came true, and likely to come true in the future? how do you contend that, or were those prophecies written after they came true?

the problem with prophecies in general is that they are always deemed fulfilled after the fact. they are terrible predictors since they never give an exact date or time, and are usually fairly vague on specific details (and the details themselves are also widely disputed within specific religions). if i made a prophecy up now and was given 2000 years for it to be fulfilled, i'm sure at some point between now and then something would occur somewhere on the globe that would fit the prophecy - but does that mean it was fulfilled? and even if it wasn't fulfilled i could either extend the date, say the prophecy was misinterpreted and/or make some other situation fit the description.

the second problem is that all major religions make prophetic claims and they all assert that at least some of these have been fulfilled so far. does that mean they are all successful in describing future events? or does it mean they've managed to be lucky on some claims, and managed to make other events fit their claims?

Last edited by miller-time : 03-15-2011 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:26 AM   #5
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

i havent researched much on the prophecies of the bible or other religious works, but i can believe either side, i know some people who got in touch with the spiritual realm were able to predict the future with certainty but not to a perfect record, so that leaves the future open to possibility rather than certainty

which is why i reject revelations
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:05 AM   #6
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by miller-time
the problem with prophecies in general is that they are always deemed fulfilled after the fact. they are terrible predictors since they never give an exact date or time, and are usually fairly vague on specific details (and the details themselves are also widely disputed within specific religions). if i made a prophecy up now and was given 2000 years for it to be fulfilled, i'm sure at some point between now and then something would occur somewhere on the globe that would fit the prophecy - but does that mean it was fulfilled? and even if it wasn't fulfilled i could either extend the date, say the prophecy was misinterpreted and/or make some other situation fit the description.

the second problem is that all major religions make prophetic claims and they all assert that at least some of these have been fulfilled so far. does that mean they are all successful in describing future events? or does it mean they've managed to be lucky on some claims, and managed to make other events fit their claims?

Quote:
Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled in One Person:

Betrayed by a friend. (Psalms 41:9; Matthew 26:49).
Thirty pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15).
Betrayal money cast to the floor of the temple (Zechariah 11:13; Matthew 27:5).
Betrayal money used to buy the potter’s field (Zechariah 11:13: Matthew 27:7).
Forsaken and deserted by his disciples (Zechariah 13:7; Mark 14:50).
Accused by false witnesses (Psalms 35:11; Matthew 26:59-60).
Silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12).
Wounded and bruised (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 27:26).
Hated without a cause (Psalm 69:4; John 15:25).
Struck and spat upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67).
Mocked, ridiculed and rejected (Isaiah 53:3; Matthew 27:27-31 and John 7:5, 48).
Collapse from weakness (Psalms 109:24-25; Luke 23:26).
Taunted with specific words (Psalms 22:6-8; Matthew 27:39-43).
People will shake their heads at Him (Psalms 109:25; Matthew 27:39).
People will stare at Him (Psalms 22:17; Luke 23:35).
Executed among “sinners” (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38).
Hands and feet will be pierced (Psalms 22:16; Luke 23:33).
Will pray for his persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34).
Friends and family will stand afar off and watch (Psalms 38:11; Luke 23:49).
Garments will be divided and won by the casting of lots (Psalms 22:18; John 19:23-24).
Will thirst (Psalms 69:21; John 19:28).
Will be given gall and vinegar (Psalms 69:21; Matthew 27:34).
Will commit Himself to God (Psalms 31:5; Luke 23:46).
Bones will be left unbroken (Psalms 34:20; John 19:33).
Heart will rupture (Psalm 22:14; John 19:34).
Side will be pierced (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34).
Darkness will come over the land at midday (Amos 8:9; Matthew 27:45).
Will be buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60).
Will die 438 years after the declaration of Artaxerxes to rebuild the temple in 444 BC (Daniel 9:24).
Will be raised from the dead (Psalms 16:10; Acts 2:31), ascend to heaven (Psalms 68:18; Acts 1:9) and be seated the right hand of God in full majesty and authority (Psalms 110:1; Hebrews 1:3).

Professor Peter W. Stoner who authored “Science Speaks” stated that the probability of just eight particular prophecies being fulfilled in one person is 1 in 10^17, i.e. 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000). The eight prophecies used in the calculation were:

1. Messiah is to be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2; fulfilled in Matt. 2:1-7; John 7:42; Luke 2:47).

2. Messiah is to be preceded by a Messenger (Isaiah 40:3; Malachi 3:1; fulfilled in Matthew 3:1-3; 11:10; John 1:23; Luke 1:17).

3. Messiah is to enter Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; fulfilled in Luke 35-37; Matthew 21:6-11).

4. Messiah is to be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9; 55:12-14; fulfilled in Matthew 10:4; 26:49-50; John 13:21).

5. Messiah is to be sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; fulfilled in Matthew 26:15; 27:3).

6. The money for which Messiah is sold is to be thrown “to the potter” in God’s house (Zechariah 11:13; fulfilled in Matthew 27:5-7).

7. Messiah is to be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; fulfilled in Matthew 27:12).

8. Messiah is to be executed by crucifixion as a thief (Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10; Isaiah 53:5,12; fulfilled in Luke 23:33; John 20:25; Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27,28).

This statement was validated by the American Scientific Affiliation. This number has been illustrated as follows:

If we take 1 X 10^17 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas, they'll cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one?

Professor Stoner went on to consider 48 prophecies and says, “… We find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10^157.

“This is a really large number and it represents an extremely small chance. Let us try to visualize it. The silver dollar, which we have been using, is entirely too large. We must select a smaller object. The electron is about as small an object as we know of. It is so small that it will take 2.5 times 10^15 of them laid side by side to make a line, single file, one inch long. If we were going to count the electrons in this line one inch long, and counted 250 each minute, and if we counted day and night, it would take us 19,000,000 years to count just the one-inch line of electrons. If we had a cubic inch of these electrons and we tried to count them it would take us, counting steadily 250 each minute, 19,000,000 times 19,000,000 times 19,000,000 [nineteen million times nineteen million times nineteen million] or 6.9 times 10^21 years.

This is approximately the total number of electrons in all the mass of the known universe. In other words the probability of Jesus Christ fulfilling 48 prophecies is the same as one person being able to pick out one electron out of the entire mass of our universe.
Such is the chance of any one man fulfilling any 48 prophecies. Yet Jesus Christ fulfilled not just 48 prophecies, not just 61 prophecies, but more than 324 individual prophecies that the Prophets wrote concerning the Messiah. I haven’t been able to find the statistical projection representing the possibility of Jesus Christ fulfilling 324 prophecies but I really don’t think it matters given the illustrations set forth above.

http://www.raptureready.com/featured...obability.html

1 in 2000 is definitely not 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000.
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:11 AM   #7
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuckey
my super christian friend is telling me the prophecy of revelations, it's pretty interesting

what do atheists say about all the prophecies that came true, and likely to come true in the future? how do you contend that, or were those prophecies written after they came true?
they'd just say it was a coincidence lol
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:11 AM   #8
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TennesseeFan
http://www.raptureready.com/featured...obability.html

1 in 2000 is definitely not 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000.

I am sure this completely unbiased website you are sourcing uses very sound statistics

just look at the name, raptureready.com



Last edited by KeylessEntry : 03-15-2011 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:17 AM   #9
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeylessEntry
I am sure this completely unbiased website you are sourcing uses very sound statistics

just look at the name, raptureready.com



Thats why I copied and pasted the statistical part, which is correct.
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:19 AM   #10
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

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Originally Posted by TennesseeFan
Thats why I copied and pasted the statistical part, which is correct.

It is complete bullshit kid. Just look at the cover of the book they are sourcing- "Science Speaks: Scientific proof of the accuracy of prophecy and the bible"
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:20 AM   #11
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

www.crivoice.org/therevelation.html


Quote:
The book as prophecy: Because the Book of Revelation is written in John’s own name, it is related to OT prophecy, perhaps more closely than it is to apocalyptic. But it is not prophecy in the popular (and incorrect) modern sense of "predicting the future." OT prophecy was overwhelmingly concerned with speaking God’s message to people of the prophet’s own time, interpreting God’s will for them in light of then current historical events. The prophets were primarily "covenant mediators," calling the people to be faithful to God in the midst of the ups and downs of history.
1) In this sense, Revelation is a message, not for the far future, but for the first century Church whose very existence was being threatened by persecution from both Romans and Jews. But as a message to the first century church, since we accept it as Scripture, it is also a "word" of God to the church today.
2) This relation to OT prophecy also underscores the fact that the Book of Revelation is related to a particular time in history, to a particular set of circumstances, and to particular people. This does not mean it is irrelevant for us today; it just means we cannot make it address the issues we want it to address directly, without first understanding something about what it meant to the early church.
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:20 AM   #12
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TennesseeFan
http://www.raptureready.com/featured...obability.html

1 in 2000 is definitely not 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000.
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:47 AM   #13
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

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Originally Posted by KeylessEntry
It is complete bullshit kid. Just look at the cover of the book they are sourcing- "Science Speaks: Scientific proof of the accuracy of prophecy and the bible"

Oh my gosh, I do not care. Read the statistics, that all I wanted you to read.
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:56 AM   #14
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

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Originally Posted by TennesseeFan
Oh my gosh, I do not care. Read the statistics, that all I wanted you to read.

Aint it funny how the book that contains the story of Jesus makes "prophecies" about Jesus? Mind blowing stuff.
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Old 03-15-2011, 12:01 PM   #15
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Default Re: debunking christianity/religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TennesseeFan
Oh my gosh, I do not care. Read the statistics, that all I wanted you to read.

Nobody is reading that biased garbage. Come in here with some real information if you want other people to read.
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