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Old 08-12-2007, 06:12 AM   #1
BradMiller52
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Default What type of players do championship teams need?

I was thinking about this after I watched part of a Bulls/Pistons ECF game from 1989 and I'm looking at this Pistons roster and they had a ton of good role players. They had Salley for rebounding+blocking shots, Rodman for rebounds, man defense, and energy. Both of those guys came off the bench. They had Vinnie Johnson off the bench for scoring. They had Mahorn starting for D. They had their 2 top guys(Isiah+Dumars) and then 2 guys after that(Aguirre+Laimbeer). They had their 3-4 scorers, then they had a bunch of hustle+defensive guys. Everyone knew their role. They knew how they were going to win, with defense, rebounding, and toughness.

Then I started thinking about this and I like at other championship teams. The 91-93 Bulls had it too. MJ was their number 1 guy, Pippen #2, and Grant #3. Cartwright knew his role was to provide toughness+a few points in the paint. Paxson just hit open jumpshots and ran their offense every now and then. Grant provided some good D and shotblocking. Obviously that team had great players with MJ and Pip but everyone knew their role. Each player provided something different. MJ got them points in the paint/near the paint with his slashing and his mid range game. Pippen was great man to man defender. etc. Again everyone knew their role and they had ROLE PLAYERS.

Hakeem's Rockets were basically Hakeem+a bunch of role players on the 1st title. Hakeem was the #1 guy(also provided a lot of other stuff) and he gave them a lot of rebounding+shotblocking. But aside from that, they had Thorpe to compliment Hakeem with some defense and scoring. Maxwell was crazy as hell but he gave them nice perimeter D+passing and ball handling. They had perimeter shooters to compliment their guy(Cassel, Kenny Smith, Mario Elie). They didn't have a great player after Hakeem but they had a lot of guys who complimented him which sort of made up for it?

I don't really feel like covering their 2nd championship team, IMO it was basically similar+another great player in Drexler.

I don't feel like covering MJ's 96-98 team too much either but I guess I will. The MJ/Pippen thing is obvious, they had their #1 and #2 options. Rodman is obviously the rebounder+post defender. Kukoc=3rd offensive guy+perimeter shooting and passing etc. They had their role players like Kerr to do the shooting, that one dude Longley for... whatever I don't even remember what he's good at. Maybe something. Mainly fouls for Shaq I guess? Like I said I don't even remember or care honestly. My point is... he did SOMETHING.

Spurs had the Duncan+Robinson combo as their #1+2 guys. Then they had the role players. Elliott was the 3rd guy+a 3 point shooter to benefit from Duncan/Robinson inside presence. Avery Johnson the tough pass 1st PG. Ellie as a defender+shooter. The team was built well. Everyone has their roles to play and knows their place on the team and everyone provides a skill they do well.

Lakers(hate them) had Snaq and Kobe as the 1/2, then they got guys like Grant and Horry for post D. Horry was a shooter to spread the floor(I AM DONE TYPING STUFF ABOUT ROBERT HORRY). They had a couple smart+big PGs who could defend well and fit in the triangle offense. They had Glen Rice as a 3rd option for 1 or 2 years IIRC.

Then you have the 04 Pistons. They knew they were going to win with their D, but they were a complete team. Once they made the trade for Sheed they were a complete team. They had their #1+#2 guys in Billups and Hamilton, and Prince and Billups also give them tremendous perimeter D. Sheed gave them post D so Ben could just play the role of shotblocker and just do a bit of guarding the other team's worst frontcourt guy while grabbing boards. Sheed gave them a post scorer as well. Mehmet Okur gave them scoring off the bench. Mike James+Lindsey Hunter were tremendous defensively as far as man to man d goes.

So then you look for qualities that all these teams possesed. Every team had role players, #1/#2/#3 options, a certain strategy to win(bulls used the triangle, pistons with d, spurs with D, Rockets by scoring+giving Hakeem the ball, lakers with the triangle+shaq/kobe's individual abilities), and the teams had players who complimented eachother. Our team that should've won the chip had that stuff. Webb as the #1 guy, Peja as the #2, Bibby was the clutch 3rd option, Vlade/Christie as role players who did the other stuff, we won with the princeton O, etc.

So since we're supposedly building a new team I figure we should look at some players who do stuff like that that we might get in rumored trades for certain players. Also whether you guys agree/disagree.
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Old 08-12-2007, 06:49 AM   #2
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Default Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradMiller52
I was thinking about this after I watched part of a Bulls/Pistons ECF game from 1989 and I'm looking at this Pistons roster and they had a ton of good role players. They had Salley for rebounding+blocking shots, Rodman for rebounds, man defense, and energy. Both of those guys came off the bench. They had Vinnie Johnson off the bench for scoring. They had Mahorn starting for D. They had their 2 top guys(Isiah+Dumars) and then 2 guys after that(Aguirre+Laimbeer). They had their 3-4 scorers, then they had a bunch of hustle+defensive guys. Everyone knew their role. They knew how they were going to win, with defense, rebounding, and toughness.

Then I started thinking about this and I like at other championship teams. The 91-93 Bulls had it too. MJ was their number 1 guy, Pippen #2, and Grant #3. Cartwright knew his role was to provide toughness+a few points in the paint. Paxson just hit open jumpshots and ran their offense every now and then. Grant provided some good D and shotblocking. Obviously that team had great players with MJ and Pip but everyone knew their role. Each player provided something different. MJ got them points in the paint/near the paint with his slashing and his mid range game. Pippen was great man to man defender. etc. Again everyone knew their role and they had ROLE PLAYERS.

Hakeem's Rockets were basically Hakeem+a bunch of role players on the 1st title. Hakeem was the #1 guy(also provided a lot of other stuff) and he gave them a lot of rebounding+shotblocking. But aside from that, they had Thorpe to compliment Hakeem with some defense and scoring. Maxwell was crazy as hell but he gave them nice perimeter D+passing and ball handling. They had perimeter shooters to compliment their guy(Cassel, Kenny Smith, Mario Elie). They didn't have a great player after Hakeem but they had a lot of guys who complimented him which sort of made up for it?

I don't really feel like covering their 2nd championship team, IMO it was basically similar+another great player in Drexler.

I don't feel like covering MJ's 96-98 team too much either but I guess I will. The MJ/Pippen thing is obvious, they had their #1 and #2 options. Rodman is obviously the rebounder+post defender. Kukoc=3rd offensive guy+perimeter shooting and passing etc. They had their role players like Kerr to do the shooting, that one dude Longley for... whatever I don't even remember what he's good at. Maybe something. Mainly fouls for Shaq I guess? Like I said I don't even remember or care honestly. My point is... he did SOMETHING.

Spurs had the Duncan+Robinson combo as their #1+2 guys. Then they had the role players. Elliott was the 3rd guy+a 3 point shooter to benefit from Duncan/Robinson inside presence. Avery Johnson the tough pass 1st PG. Ellie as a defender+shooter. The team was built well. Everyone has their roles to play and knows their place on the team and everyone provides a skill they do well.

Lakers(hate them) had Snaq and Kobe as the 1/2, then they got guys like Grant and Horry for post D. Horry was a shooter to spread the floor(I AM DONE TYPING STUFF ABOUT ROBERT HORRY). They had a couple smart+big PGs who could defend well and fit in the triangle offense. They had Glen Rice as a 3rd option for 1 or 2 years IIRC.

Then you have the 04 Pistons. They knew they were going to win with their D, but they were a complete team. Once they made the trade for Sheed they were a complete team. They had their #1+#2 guys in Billups and Hamilton, and Prince and Billups also give them tremendous perimeter D. Sheed gave them post D so Ben could just play the role of shotblocker and just do a bit of guarding the other team's worst frontcourt guy while grabbing boards. Sheed gave them a post scorer as well. Mehmet Okur gave them scoring off the bench. Mike James+Lindsey Hunter were tremendous defensively as far as man to man d goes.

So then you look for qualities that all these teams possesed. Every team had role players, #1/#2/#3 options, a certain strategy to win(bulls used the triangle, pistons with d, spurs with D, Rockets by scoring+giving Hakeem the ball, lakers with the triangle+shaq/kobe's individual abilities), and the teams had players who complimented eachother. Our team that should've won the chip had that stuff. Webb as the #1 guy, Peja as the #2, Bibby was the clutch 3rd option, Vlade/Christie as role players who did the other stuff, we won with the princeton O, etc.

So since we're supposedly building a new team I figure we should look at some players who do stuff like that that we might get in rumored trades for certain players. Also whether you guys agree/disagree.

duncan, tony parker, ginobili...lol j/k.

but basically there has to be at least a near-dominant big man who can also score to go along with a talented PG to run the show. because what's a big man gonna do if he can't get the ball where he wants it? you need a good distributor/facilitator. the key about the PG is they've got to be unselfish and get everyone involved before looking for their own shot. this is why I think some people over-rate the scoring PG's like starbury and A.I, and guess what neither of them have won chips. and obviously you've gotta have role players who actually know what their roles ARE and can step up when needed. but the most important factor of a championship team is definitely a solid bench. Having a deep roster helps so much when you get further into the playoffs and your starters are tired. spurs are a fine example of this.
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Old 08-12-2007, 07:07 AM   #3
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Default Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

See I don't think a PG is that important. I think you just need some offensive players(1, a good-great 2nd option, and a decent 3rd) who can take over a game and then some support players to do everything those guys don't do. Aside from Parker/Billups the last couple championship PGs have been guys like Jason Williams, Derek Fisher, Brian Shaw, Ron Harper, Avery Johnson, Tony Parker before he became "Tony Parker"(the 03 version), etc. That's definitely not an elite list of PGs. None of those guys were even top 10 at the position. But Williams gave Miami extra ball handling, play making, and shooting. Fisher was a clutch shooter, Shaw and Harper were smart, big, defensive PGs. You don't need a great PG IMO, you need one who excels at something. Not to say you can't win with a great PG because if I say that, I'd obviously be wrong(Parker/Billups). A PG is as important as the other positions are. Last couple years Shaq(C) won 4 titles(3 as the main guy, 1 as a #2 option), Billups/Parker(I guess I'll count him because he played really well in the Cavs series, but EVERYONE knows Duncan is better) won 1 apiece, Duncan(PF) has won 4, MJ won 6, Isiah won 2, Kobe won 3, Wade won 1. Pippen SF can also be counted even though he won his stuff with Mike so give him 6, Hakeem won 2 also.

All of those guys play different positions. But they're all very good-great players(besides Chauncey/Parker but they're still good+a top 2 option on their team). The bottom line is you need guys who can take over a game. Shaq does that in the post, Duncan does it in the post+with D, MJ could take over a game pretty much any way he wanted, Pippen with his D, Kobe with his offensive game, Wade with his slashing, heck if you count Parker/Billups than Chauncey does it sort of with his post game and perimeter D while Parker is one of the best slashers in the game.

So basically- find 1 or 2 players who are very good-the best at what they do and build around them I guess.
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Old 08-12-2007, 05:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

that's why i'm saying people over-rate the scoring PG's. you don't need someone who's going to put up 25 points a game while running the point. you need them to be setting people up, getting the ball to guys where they want it, controlling the tempo and hitting shots when they get the chance. they're very important imo.
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Old 08-12-2007, 06:12 PM   #5
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Default Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

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Originally Posted by Targus™
that's why i'm saying people over-rate the scoring PG's. you don't need someone who's going to put up 25 points a game while running the point. you need them to be setting people up, getting the ball to guys where they want it, controlling the tempo and hitting shots when they get the chance. they're very important imo.

then we need to deal mike.
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Old 08-12-2007, 06:21 PM   #6
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Default Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

Yeah, I mean you look at the teams who win championships and the PGs pretty much run a bit of the offense(or don't at all...) and get the ball to the best player. That's what J-Will did for the Heat, bring it up and give it to Wade. What Ron Harper did for the Bulls and Lakers. The only time a good PG wins is when they are the 1st or 2nd best offensive player on their team. So basically you might not need a PG that scores a ton, but IMO it also doesn't mean you can't build around one. Also doesn't mean you need a Steve Nash, Kidd, etc. at PG because those guys don't have titles either(although they could before they retire).

So anyway as far as young guys we might get in trades who are championship players, I've been thinking. If we trade Ron to NY we MUST get Renaldo Balkman back. He is the perfect energy player who does everything else, he plays perimeter D, he gets rebounds, blocks, steals, etc. If we trade Bibby to Cleveland I want Gibson back atleast. He's sort of a big PG, he can play D(shut down Chauncey) and he hits clutch shots. He won't be a great player but I think he'll be good.

Who do you guys like(young guys) that we could pick up in trades that kind of fit what I'm talking about here?
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Old 08-12-2007, 09:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradMiller52
Yeah, I mean you look at the teams who win championships and the PGs pretty much run a bit of the offense(or don't at all...) and get the ball to the best player. That's what J-Will did for the Heat, bring it up and give it to Wade. What Ron Harper did for the Bulls and Lakers. The only time a good PG wins is when they are the 1st or 2nd best offensive player on their team. So basically you might not need a PG that scores a ton, but IMO it also doesn't mean you can't build around one. Also doesn't mean you need a Steve Nash, Kidd, etc. at PG because those guys don't have titles either(although they could before they retire).

So anyway as far as young guys we might get in trades who are championship players, I've been thinking. If we trade Ron to NY we MUST get Renaldo Balkman back. He is the perfect energy player who does everything else, he plays perimeter D, he gets rebounds, blocks, steals, etc. If we trade Bibby to Cleveland I want Gibson back atleast. He's sort of a big PG, he can play D(shut down Chauncey) and he hits clutch shots. He won't be a great player but I think he'll be good.

Who do you guys like(young guys) that we could pick up in trades that kind of fit what I'm talking about here?

check out the offseason thread.

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Old 08-12-2007, 11:28 PM   #8
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Default Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

A dominant two way big man, perimeter defenders, spot up shooters, a rebounder at the 4 and a talented guard ala wade, gil, kobe and a decent point guard who can get around 5-6 assists and hit the open jumpshot.

basically

Watson
Gil
Battier
Hayes
Shaq

bench:

raja
magloire
deng

would probably win a title.

any team of that sort, containing those types of players.

Last edited by Agent_Zero : 08-12-2007 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 08-13-2007, 12:52 AM   #9
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Default Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent_Zero
A dominant two way big man, perimeter defenders, spot up shooters, a rebounder at the 4 and a talented guard ala wade, gil, kobe and a decent point guard who can get around 5-6 assists and hit the open jumpshot.

basically

Watson
Gil
Battier
Hayes
Shaq

bench:

raja
magloire
deng

would probably win a title.

any team of that sort, containing those types of players.

no way in hell that team wins a championship , but we can agree to disagree
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Old 08-13-2007, 06:32 AM   #10
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Default Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

IMO a team needs 3 scorers. that comes 1st. then you build around your scorers. most teams in the playoffs have 3 scores and you don't see many teams in the playoffs with 2 scores or even 1. thats just what i think.
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Old 08-13-2007, 03:42 PM   #11
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Default Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

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IMO a team needs 3 scorers. that comes 1st. then you build around your scorers. most teams in the playoffs have 3 scores and you don't see many teams in the playoffs with 2 scores or even 1. thats just what i think.

lebron.


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Old 08-13-2007, 09:17 PM   #12
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Default Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradMiller52
So anyway as far as young guys we might get in trades who are championship players, I've been thinking. If we trade Ron to NY we MUST get Renaldo Balkman back. He is the perfect energy player who does everything else, he plays perimeter D, he gets rebounds, blocks, steals, etc. If we trade Bibby to Cleveland I want Gibson back atleast. He's sort of a big PG, he can play D(shut down Chauncey) and he hits clutch shots. He won't be a great player but I think he'll be good.

First of all, Gibson is quite small and scrawny. If he shuts down Chancey it's by being scrappy. I wouldn't make that trade because Gibson's worth is based solely on a handful of playoff appearances (he didn't even play 1,000 minutes for the Cavs last season).

I like energy guys as much as everyone else. But you can't give up an elite talent (Artest) for someone who is an energy guy (Balkman). That totally contradicts your theory of getting two solid superstars and complementing them with solid role players. Giving away Bibby and Artest for Gibson and Balkman (granted I know you meant to include a couple other players in those trades) is not a good way to build a championship team.

Personally I think that the best way for us to get quality talent is through the draft. No key free agents are going to want to sign in Sac for max deals when they can get max deals elsewhere. We'd have to offer more years on contracts and that's often a bad idea (see Rashard Lewis).

By drafting good lottery players and making smart trades/signings on mid-level talent we should be able to get back to a superior level in 3-5 years. But we'll still be competing with Blazers and Sonics at that point. Man, that's scary.
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Old 08-14-2007, 05:32 AM   #13
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Default Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

See but you're not factoring in the talent we get from the draft. You're saying that we trade Ron and Bibby for Gibson and Balkman and that's it. But in each trade we probably get rid of Kenny and/or SAR/Brad and maybe get a 1st round pick. So since we're taking on contracts that expire in 2009 instead of 2010 we set ourselves up for cap room to sign FAs, we have a down year but we get a possibly elite talent in the draft which we won't be able to get with the 8th seed, etc. IMO it puts us in a better position. And then once you get your other scorer/star, you have the support players in place.

Ron's trade value is lowered anyway, so we won't get an elite talent back for him. IMO a 1st round pick from NYK+Balkman+expirings+Rose(2 year contract) for Ron/Kenny is a good deal. Sets you up to have cap room in 2009, gets you youth, etc. Then a Bibby deal to either Miami or Cleveland for capspace, picks, etc. +maybe Gibson is a good deal IMO. I'm not saying Gibson is a great player but I think he can be good. He might not be a "large" PG like I said but he's strong and he has some skills. He's a decent young player.
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Old 08-14-2007, 10:57 AM   #14
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Default Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

Superstars, roll players, and vetrans.

Two scorerers, 1 rebounder, 1 lock down defender, and a PG that can create. One player can fill more then one of those rolls. Also they need a coach that can utilitize all of their talents.
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Old 08-14-2007, 01:48 PM   #15
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Exclamation Re: What type of players do championship teams need?

As others have said, if ARTEST is good this year ( basketball) ( personal problems), then by trade time in Feb, he could be bait for someone else. The same goes for Bibby ( if) injury free and is as good as he can be then maybe he would also be trade bait.

We just need to develop the new players to the best of their ability.

DEBORAH
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