Stacked? LeBron's teams without him.

[GimmeThat]

Has LeBron ever missed a game in the playoffs?

so I guess the Cavs teams weren't stacked?

[guy]

It is evidence, but suggestive, not dispositive evidence. 1-3 is a bad example. That is a very small sample and in a game here and there the dominant Bosh did not play as well. Still, we have a total of 39 games over the years where LeBron did not play and his teams are 16-23. Wade and Paul provide stronger samples--and they don't show the same implied impact as LeBron. Regarding the Heat, we will get a real world showing about how great they are absent LeBron next year.

The thing is, and this is why LeBron haters are mad, is every data point that we have suggests LeBron has an impact on the win-loss column at a GOAT-caliber level and an impact that no contemporary of his can match. Wade, Kobe both had three seasons with scrubs. The results? They missed the playoffs in one season and scratched and clawed to get past 0.500 in two--and this was their peak versions. at LeBron haters clinging to 3 games where Bosh and Wade also did not play and ignoring the 39 game total.

The Heat record adds up to only 18 games and he missed most of those games inconsistently (missed a game here and there, not like he was ever out for a considerable). Randomly taking that important player off a team who rarely ever misses games will throw chemistry off and how his teammates approach the game in general. In some cases it might not matter (teams sometimes galvanize and come together when a superstar is out), in some cases it does, it really depends on the mental makeup and approach of the team in that situation but it really doesn't mean much when it comes to how his teammates play when the superstar IS playing. Seriously, am I supposed to believe that Heat team in the weak Eastern Conference is only a .500 team without Lebron?

[guy]

2011: 57-22 with LeBron, 1-2 without LeBron
2012: 45-17 with LeBron, 1-3 without LeBron
2013: 61-15 with LeBron, 5-1 without LeBron
2014: 52-25 with LeBron, 2-3 without LeBron

These were your results for the Heat without Lebron. If you take away the 5 losses where Lebron and Bosh or Lebron, Bosh and Wade did not play its a 9-4 result. If you use your biased results its 9-9.

Now your whole point was showing how the heat without Lebron was a 50% win and with Lebron it was a 73% win team.

When actually its a 73% team with Lebron and Bosh or Lebron, Wade and Bosh and a 69% when its a Wade and Bosh team.

Kinda of a big difference don't you think?

But yea sure, just keep saying how the Heat was all Lebron.

There's this too

[Roundball_Rock]

How much does the absence of just one of the three superstars matter?

2014

Heat with LeBron/Bosh, no Wade: 14-9
Heat with Wade/Bosh, no LeBron: 2-2

2013

Heat with LeBron/Bosh, no Wade: 5-1
Heat with Wade/Bosh, no LeBron: N/A

And for kicks, here is their record with only LeBron among the "Big 3": 2-0. Bosh went 1-0 without LeBron and Wade.

2012

Heat with LeBron/Bosh, no Wade: 12-3
Heat with Wade/Bosh, no LeBron: N/A

And for kicks, here is their record with only LeBron among the "Big 3": 2-0. Wade went 0-2 without LeBron and Bosh. Bosh went 1-0 without them.

2011

Heat with LeBron/Bosh, no Wade: 3-2
Heat with Wade/Bosh, no LeBron: 0-2

And for kicks, here is their record with only LeBron among the "Big 3": 2-0.

Totals

Heat with LeBron/Bosh, no Wade: 34-15 (69%)
Heat with Wade/Bosh, no LeBron: 2-4 (33%)
Heat with only LeBron: 6-0 (100%)
Heat with only Wade: 0-2

But let’s post a few boxscores with one missing and act as if it means much.

Seriously, am I supposed to believe that Heat team in the weak Eastern Conference is only a .500 team without Lebron?

Prior to the Deng signing the consensus here was the Heat were a 40-45 win team without LeBron, with Bosh and Wade.

[riseagainst]

can you do a list like this in the playoffs?

Warmest Regards,

riseagainst

[Warfan]

Are you gonna respond to my post on Page 1?? Or are you just gonna cling to a couple regular season games over 4 years??

If you honestly don't think the Heat were stacked atleast for the first 2 years then you're a complete moron

[guy]

Prior to the Deng signing the consensus here was the Heat were a 40-45 win team without LeBron, with Bosh and Wade.

Well I didn't believe that, but even if that was the case, has Wade been the same player from 2011-now and will remain the same player?

[Roundball_Rock]

Are you gonna respond to my post on Page 1?? Or are you just gonna cling to a couple regular seasons over 4 years??

If you honestly don't think the Heat were stacked atleast for the first 2 years then you're a complete moron

I did respond:

The thing about the Heat being stacked is they had no depth in 2011. That was the weakness people pointed to and why some thought the Bulls would beat them in the ECF. Depth matters, as the Spurs proved. After 2011 Wade and Bosh declined. In 2012 the Heat had a tough ECSF and a 7 game ECF. In 2013 they had a 7 game ECF. If they were the most stacked team of all-time you would think they would be dominating their way through the East...Look at the 90's Bulls' ECF's in the years they won: 4, 6, 6, 4, 5, 7. That is what a dominant team does.

To clarify, the Heat are "stacked" but in the sense of being one of the most talented teams in the league. The notion that they are the most stacked team of all-time is laughable and they are not necessarily more stacked than other top teams. The Clippers, Rockets, Thunder are three teams off the top of my head from last year who had more talent. Yeah, the Heat were very talented but it is myth that their talent level>>>>any other teams. Look at who they faced in the Finals: the Spurs dynasty twice, the Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka Thunder, and the perennial 50+ win Dirk Mavs. How about the ECF? The Rose/Noah/Deng Bulls, the "Big 4" Celtics.

That is true, guy, but LeBron detractors make no distinction between 2011 Wade and the consistently declining Wade in subsequent years. They, to diminish LeBron, act as if Wade remained at that great level in the following years. By 2014 he was a generic all-star. Bosh declined as well. Yet we kept hearing about "three superstars" for four years.

[tmacattack33]

I highly doubt anyone said his 2005-2010 Cleveland team was stacked.

Now his 2011-2014 Miami team? Yes, people said they were stacked. And they were their first 2 or 3 years when Wade was still a super-star. In the 2012 playoffs though, they certainly weren't stacked with Chris Bosh out.

[Jasi]

If there is a conclusion that I can derive from the data presented in this thread, it's that the teams where LeBron played had suspect coaching.

[Warfan]

The thing about the Heat being stacked is they had no depth in 2011. That was the weakness people pointed to and why some thought the Bulls would beat them in the ECF.

The Heat's depth wasn't much of an issue up until the finals was it? They lost 2 games combined to the 56 win Celtics and the 62 win Bulls, the 2 best defenses in the league. 2 superstars and an elite PF taking turns and just running train over some very good teams. If LeBron doesn't disappear in the 4th, doesn't get outscored by Terry the whole series and scores more than 8 points in game 4 the Heat win the series. As for the depth, that's what happens when u team up with a top 3 and top 15 player in the league, even if they're top heavy that team should completely run over teams, which they did until LeBron decided to not show up in the finals.

After 2011 Wade and Bosh declined. In 2012 the Heat had a tough ECSF and a 7 game ECF. In 2013 they had a 7 game ECF. If they were the most stacked team of all-time you would think they would be dominating their way through the East...Look at the 90's Bulls' ECF's in the years they won: 4, 6, 6, 4, 5, 7. That is what a dominant team does.

Let me make it clear, i don't think they're the most stacked team ever. That's just plain idiotic and people that say that are trolling. But im not arguing that they are, im saying they were stacked for the first 3 years.


Wade was still an elite player and played great in the playoffs in 2012. 23/5/4 and a couple great performances like these (more where these came from):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBeokdGfujA (22 in the 2nd half)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8CWUZIdwWQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VovlaSMsbGY (closeout game)
26/6/3 for the series

Against the Celtics he averaged 21.5/6/5 and in the finals 23/6/5. Yes he may have declined, but he played great and had some huge games. I already talked about how role players stepped up and had big games in both 2012 and 2013. And that bosh was probably the best 3rd option in the league as well. So im not gonna list all those games from the other players again

To clarify, the Heat are "stacked" but in the sense of being one of the most talented teams in the league. The notion that they are the most stacked team of all-time is laughable and they are not necessarily more stacked than other top teams. The Clippers, Rockets, Thunder are three teams off the top of my head from last year who had more talent. Yeah, the Heat were very talented but it is myth that their talent level>>>>any other teams. Look at who they faced in the Finals: the Spurs dynasty twice, the Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka Thunder, and the perennial 50+ win Dirk Mavs. How about the ECF? The Rose/Noah/Deng Bulls, the "Big 4" Celtics

.

I didn't claim the Heat were stacked last year, wade declined significantly more, the role players were older and not as capable and Bosh seemed to be too used to his role as a spot up shooter to take over games or play well consistently. I don't see how this is relevant to what I said though, since I agree that they weren't stacked last year and that the heat aren't the most stacked team ever.

That is true, guy, but LeBron detractors make no distinction between 2011 Wade and the consistently declining Wade in subsequent years. They, to diminish LeBron, act as if Wade remained at that great level in the following years. In 2014 he was a generic all-star. Bosh declined as well. Yet we kept hearing about "three superstars" for four years.

I don't agree with this, so again, irrelevant. Bosh was never a superstar, he was a top 15 player when he joined wade & bron and was a great 3rd option. Wade was a superstar the first 2 years and played like one in the reg season of 2013, struggled a bit in the playoffs but had a good finals and had some big games.

[B-hoop]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Totals

Heat with LeBron/Bosh, no Wade: 34-15 (69%)
Heat with Wade/Bosh, no LeBron: 2-4 (33%)
Heat with only LeBron: 6-0 (100%)
Heat with only Wade: 0-2
Heat with only Bosh: 2-0

But let

[Roundball_Rock]

The OP is a response to people claiming 1) the Heat were all-time stacked 2) people claiming the Cavs were a good team due to defense.

The Heat's depth wasn't much of an issue up until the finals was it?

It was in 2012 and 2013 when deeper teams gave them trouble in the ECF both years and the ECSF as well in 12'. The 11' Heat were the most talented at the top, but the 13' Heat were the best version of the Heat. Keep in mind that was the only year the Heat were the #1 seed.

Yeah, Wade remained elite in 2012 and 2013. Was he substantially better than the "#2's" on other championship teams, though? What I disagree with is the claim that the Heat were stacked to an unprecedented degree. Wade in 11' was as good as the best "sidekicks" of all-time but Wade in 12' and 13' resembled the typical "#2" on a championship team. Look at the type of players we are talking about: Gasol, Pierce, Parker, Kobe, D. Robinson, Pippen, Worthy, McHale, Dumars, Magic, Drexler. 11' Wade was as good as the best versions of the best of these players but 2012 and 2013 Wade would not stick out from that group. What LeBron detractors do is act as if leBron had 2009 Wade with him his entire time in Miami.

And that bosh was probably the best 3rd option in the league as well.

Was he? He had 14/8 in the 12' playoffs, 12/7 in 13', and 15/6 in 14'. How is this, as many allege (not you), unprecedented help? Any championship team will get at least that much production from its third best player; many would get significantly more production.

Bosh was never a superstar, he was a top 15 player when he joined wade & bron and was a great 3rd option. Wade was a superstar the first 2 years and played like one in the reg season of 2013, struggled a bit in the playoffs but had a good finals and had some big games.

Agreed.

[Ne 1]

The Heat's depth wasn't much of an issue up until the finals was it? They lost 2 games combined to the 56 win Celtics and the 62 win Bulls, the 2 best defenses in the league. 2 superstars and an elite PF taking turns and just running train over some very good teams. If LeBron doesn't disappear in the 4th, doesn't get outscored by Terry the whole series and scores more than 8 points in game 4 the Heat win the series. As for the depth, that's what happens when u team up with a top 3 and top 15 player in the league, even if they're top heavy that team should completely run over teams, which they did until LeBron decided to not show up in the finals.




Let me make it clear, i don't think they're the most stacked team ever. That's just plain idiotic and people that say that are trolling. But im not arguing that they are, im saying they were stacked for the first 3 years.


Wade was still an elite player and played great in the playoffs in 2012. 23/5/4 and a couple great performances like these (more where these came from):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBeokdGfujA (22 in the 2nd half)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8CWUZIdwWQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VovlaSMsbGY (closeout game)
26/6/3 for the series

Against the Celtics he averaged 21.5/6/5 and in the finals 23/6/5. Yes he may have declined, but he played great and had some huge games. I already talked about how role players stepped up and had big games in both 2012 and 2013. And that bosh was probably the best 3rd option in the league as well. So im not gonna list all those games from the other players again


.

I didn't claim the Heat were stacked last year, wade declined significantly more, the role players were older and not as capable and Bosh seemed to be too used to his role as a spot up shooter to take over games or play well consistently. I don't see how this is relevant to what I said though, since I agree that they weren't stacked last year and that the heat aren't the most stacked team ever.



I don't agree with this, so again, irrelevant. Bosh was never a superstar, he was a top 15 player when he joined wade & bron and was a great 3rd option. Wade was a superstar the first 2 years and played like one in the reg season of 2013, struggled a bit in the playoffs but had a good finals and had some big games.

Yeah, the Heat probably aren't the most stacked team in NBA history, but relative to league average, they might have been the best offensive cast in history.
Best player in the league in LeBron
Top 2 SG/Top 6-7 player in Wade
Top 5 PF/Top 15 player in Bosh

And a ridiculous amount of excellent shooters to space the floor for James/Wade:
Ray Allen
Chalmers
Battier
Miller
Lewis
(And you can even throw in Bosh here with him being regulated to a spot up shooter in Miami) Absolutely insane. If you were going to create the perfect offensive cast for a perimeter superstar, this would be it.