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Old 01-27-2010, 10:24 PM   #61
Leviathon1121
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

I am not a sock account, idiot, I really have no idea where you got that notion. And I am "Team Jordan"??? When have I EVER posted anything that falls into the "Team Jordan" category? I haven't. The only thing I have done is point out how stupid and circular your arguments are. There is a reason only a single person on this forum ever seems to agree with what you say.

Main Entry: conĚsenĚsus
Pronunciation: \kən-ˈsen(t)-səs\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Latin, from consentire
Date: 1843

1 a : general agreement : unanimity <the consensus of their opinion, based on reports…from the border — John Hersey> b : the judgment arrived at by most of those concerned <the consensus was to go ahead>

There it is again for you Fatal, you seem to not know the definition very well.

Edit: There, maybe the bold part will help you understand that consensus /= unanimous

Last edited by Leviathon1121 : 01-27-2010 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:46 PM   #62
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Saying 94' Barkley>94' Pippen is not the product of an agenda? Even Barkley's biggest fan here would disagree with that--as would 99.9% of people who watched in 94'. Hyping 94' Kerr but not 93' Abdelnaby even though their production was identical. That is not a product of an agenda? Comparing Pippen to Nick Anderson in the NBA finals. No agenda? These are just a few examples from you in one thread just a few days ago. MJ fans need to look in the mirror.

Barkley was better that year, at least in the playoffs. It was you who said the playoffs determines who the very best are, right? By the way, I never said Nick Anderson was anywhere near as good as Pippen. Abdelnaby? What did he have over Kerr? There's a reason Kerr stayed in the league and Abdelnaby left at age 26.

Quote:
Who is threatened by a Chris Webber or Ewing thread?

Maybe you don't read beyond ISH much, but I've heard Wilt, Bird, Pistons, Lakers and other fans call Pippen weak and bring up his migraine incident all the time. These are people who also hate MJ, by the way, I don't agree with them. Also, I have never knocked Pippen the way you do with Michael.

Quote:
Ok--but all have an agenda based on the definition applied to Fatal. Duncan is just an extreme version of the rest.

How many anti-Pippen posts have they made in the last week compared to what you and Fatal say about MJ?


Quote:
Yeah, it is Larry Bird and Charles Barkley fans who are always bashing Pippen.

Sometimes.

Quote:
And? As if 2-1 is an insurmountable lead--especially when Magic Johnson was on the other side. If Magic did not get HIV a lot of you may be on the Magic bandwagon, not the MJ bandwagon today.


My dad's from Chicago, I would be a MJ fan regardless of how many rings he won.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:52 PM   #63
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
A bit different than 37, 35, and nearly 33 for the Bulls' big 3, huh?

Yeah but still:

Jordan>>Miller
Pippen>>Smits
Rodman=Jackson

Funny how you left that part out in a thread about competition level. No ***AGENDA*** there? Why didn't you post the Jazz ages? Malone nearly 35, Stockton 35, Hornacek 34. No ***AGENDA*** there? @ listing Bulls' ages without attaching names in an attempt to fool the 18 year olds here. The 37 year old was the least important of the trio (Rodman). Jordan was 35, Pippen nearly 33. Allhazred are you taking notes? OSB has an agenda and is effective at promoting it. Are you going to whine? No. MJ fans only complain when someone is on the other side. They are sitting there OSB because he is the most effective member of Team Jordan at promoting the agenda.

Quote:
lol @ serious fans of the game. serious fans, who have paid attention to every players career, the entire history of the league and not just 1990 or 1980 onwards, are exactly who don't have him as "easily" the GOAT. if this board indicates anything, Jordan is only consensus GOAT amongst fans who have a limited knowledge (have you seen these "old school" fans in some Bird/Kareem/Wilt threads? they are embarrassing and ignorant.). It's funny to see them attempt to trash every other GOAT candidate's legacy without knowing anything about them, but annoying because they need to be corrected again and again. It's no coincidence the best and most knowledgeable posters on the site have someone different as GOAT (psileas, lincoln, jllauber, wignosy back when he posted, kblaze though he gives Jordan the slight edge over Kareem iirc, and many others). The more you know, the less likely you are to have Jordan as the greatest, so please lose the "serious fan" BS. Still don't know how the 90s were any stronger than what Kareem faced. Feel free to respond to my earlier post on team competition.

Looking at each players situation, as this thread does, alone shows calling someone the greatest isn't as simple as just looking at the last guy who won a lot of rings "as the man".



Half the people here who call MJ the GOAT probably think Jordan has a record for rings. Just today a MJ fan said Jordan played only 11 seasons when you excluded 86' and 95'. The problem with that, other than the obvious fact MJ was in the playoffs both years and had a shot at a ring in theory, is Jordan played in 02' and 03'! Many Jordan fans are not even serious students of the 90's game Jordan dominated. Listen to what they say about 90's players not named Michael or specific events. They will say with a straight face things like "Pippen did little or nothing in the 98' finals" because they went to BBallreference and saw that he had 10/4/4 in Game 3 or something and the "2 for 16" game that is constantly shoved down our throats. These clowns don't know what happened to trigger "2 for 16." There were 3 different MJ fans making such assine comments in one thread a while ago. Two actually cited Game 3 in particular. These are fans of Jordan! They have no clue what happened in 98' so what do they know about events prior to 98'?

There are two kinds of Jordan fans here: those who saw him play and the "new" MJ fans courtesy of YouTube you have spoken of. There is a distinct difference between guy, chitown, or even OSB, when he is not agenda posting, and the YouTube MJ crowd. Even then we are only talking about the 90's. That doesn't necessarily mean you know anything pre-1990. The Kareem thread showed this over and over again.

Quote:
The more you know, the less likely you are to have Jordan as the greatest, so please lose the "serious fan" BS.

That is their problem and the source of their insecurity, along with the suspicion (correct imo) that it is only a matter of time before the media abandons MJ and elevates another player to "clear GOAT."

Quote:
Barkley was better that year,

This is what I am talking about. This is a "serious fan"? What he said is as laughable as someone 15 years from now saying Brandon Roy>Chris Paul in 09'.

Quote:
Abdelnaby? What did he have over Kerr?

Nothing. Same production in 93' as Kerr in 94'. Yet one is called a "key addition" and the other isn't? No agenda, there? There is a reason Kerr was the 12th man in 93' too. What relevance does that have to his 94' production?

@ the hypocrisy. I won't even bother responding to the rest. There is no agenda but clear spin, clear trends. Just a coincidence each time?

Quote:
Sometimes.

The one Barkley fan here respects Pippen far more than your non-agenda MJ fans do.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:56 PM   #64
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal9
Basically I wanted to look at the competition the top 10 or so players faced in the playoffs at their own position. I tried to generally go with players that they faced during the prime years. I picked about 5 or 6 players, so let me know if I missed something or made a mistake.

Wilt - Russell, Kareem, Reed, Thurmond, Lucas, Petit
Kareem - Reed, Wilt, Peak Walton, Thurmond, Unseld, Cowens (tried to limit Cs he faced in his prime as he would see Moses, Hakeem, Parish later on)
Bird - Erving, King, Worthy, Wilkens, Dantley
Magic - DJ, Isiah, Harper, Lever, Stockton (this is tough because Magic defies position so just went with PGs)
Shaq - Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, Smits
Hakeem - Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Kareem, Divac
Duncan - Shaq, Dirk, Amare, Webber, Garnett
Russell - Wilt, Petit, Lucas, Schayes, Reed
Jordan - Dumars, Drexler, Miller, Ehlo, Starks, Majerle
Kobe - Ginobili, Allen, Iverson, Smith, Christie

So who had it the hardest? And for who was it easier to outplay his opponents? If I had to rank hardest to easiest it would be something like:

Wilt > Kareem > Bird > Russell > Hakeem > Duncan > Shaq > Magic > Jordan > Kobe

Agreed?

No. I think you measure a player by the 'average skill of their position' not by the best. Then when you take Bigs you have to factor in help.

I'm gonna go as far as to say MJ had it easier than Kobe because the 'wing' these days is way more athletic. Not saying Kobe is better than MJ, but in terms of comp... who could stay w/ MJ during his prime? No one that I can think of.

I'd say Shaq and Wilt had it the hardest because their 'scoring area' was the smallest and easiest to help.

-Smak
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:57 PM   #65
OldSchoolBBall
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Again, the 70's are considered by most to be the worst, or one of the two worst (along with the early-mid 00's), periods of NBA basketball. You can try to dress it up all you want, but there's a good reason why it's viewed in such a manner, especially post-'72.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:05 PM   #66
Alhazred
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Yeah but still:

Jordan>>Miller
Pippen>>Smits
Rodman=Jackson

Funny how you left that part out in a thread about competition level. No ***AGENDA*** there? Why didn't you post the Jazz ages? Malone nearly 35, Stockton 35, Hornacek 34. No ***AGENDA*** there? @ listing Bulls' ages without attaching names in an attempt to fool the 18 year olds here. The 37 year old was the least important of the trio (Rodman). Jordan was 35, Pippen nearly 33. Allhazred are you taking notes? OSB has an agenda and is effective at promoting it. Are you going to whine? No. MJ fans only complain when someone is on the other side. They are sitting there OSB because he is the most effective member of Team Jordan at promoting the agenda.

U mad? Yeah, u mad. I believe he was only comparing their ages. Go take a quick toke and come back, you sound rattled.

Quote:
That is their problem and the source of their insecurity, along with the suspicion (correct imo) that it is only a matter of time before the media abandons MJ and elevates another player to "clear GOAT."

I wish Lebron the best of luck and have nothing against Kobe, I think he's a great player.

Quote:
This is what I am talking about. This is a "serious fan"? What he said is as laughable as someone 15 years from now saying Brandon Roy>Chris Paul in 09'.

Barkley's 27/13/4.8 vs. Pippen's 23/8/4.6 in the playoffs? It isn't laughable, Barkley was either equal to or better than Pippen that year, at least playoffs wise.



Quote:
Nothing. Same production in 93' as Kerr in 94'. Yet one is called a "key addition" and the other isn't? No agenda, there? There is a reason Kerr was the 12th man in 93' too. What relevance does that have to his 94' production?

How many rings does Abdelnaby have again?

:
Quote:
oldlol: @ the hypocrisy. I won't even bother responding to the rest. There is no agenda but clear spin, clear trends. Just a coincidence each time?

Whatever, I don't need you to believe me. Fans have been attacking each other's favorites forever.

Quote:
The one Barkley fan here respects Pippen far more than your non-agenda MJ fans do.

Sure.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:08 PM   #67
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal9
in the playoffs? I'd say his regular season competition was much better than Jordan though.

Oops. My bad. Did the cardinal posting sin of not reading the ****ing post carefully...haha
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:16 PM   #68
Roundball_Rock
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
U mad? Yeah, u mad. I believe he was only comparing their ages. Go take a quick toke and come back, you sound rattled.

@ the hypocrisy. I exposed his "agenda" and this is your response? Jordan fans only care about "agendas" if they run counter to Jordanian doctrine. OSB has as much of an "agenda" as anyone here.

Quote:
Barkley was either equal to or better than Pippen that year



All you did is go to bballreference and look up stats. It is no coincidence 99% of people who watched then thought Pippen was better. For one, defense doesn't show up on bballreference and Pippen was arguably the best defender in the league back then and surely a "serious fan" like you knows about Barkley's defense.

Quote:
How many rings does Abdelnaby have again?



Quote:
Whatever, I don't need you to believe me. Fans have been attacking each other's favorites forever.

Yeah, there is a vast group of people with anti-Chris Webber or anti-Ewing agendas here.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:28 PM   #69
Alhazred
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
@ the hypocrisy. I exposed his "agenda" and this is your response? Jordan fans only care about "agendas" if they run counter to Jordanian doctrine. OSB has as much of an "agenda" as anyone here.

Indiana took the Bulls to 7 games. Not exactly a scrub team.

Quote:
All you did is go to bballreference and look up stats. It is no coincidence 99% of people who watched then thought Pippen was better. For one, defense doesn't show up on bballreference and Pippen was arguably the best defender in the league back then and surely a "serious fan" like you knows about Barkley's defense.

So Pippen's defense was better, and what else? Anyways, what's wrong with considering Barkley a better player in the playoffs that year? You sound like I compared Scottie to Larry Johnson, sheesh. I only said Barkley was better playoff wise. In the regular season, yes, Pippen was better.

Quote:
Yeah, there is a vast group of people with anti-Chris Webber or anti-Ewing agendas here.

Yes, because if it doesn't take place on ISH, then it can't be true.

Last edited by Alhazred : 01-27-2010 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:30 PM   #70
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Because Barkley was injured in 94, he was worse. When he was 100% I'd take him, but after 93, Pippen was better, since barkley was rarely 100%, and declining on top of tat after that point.
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Old 01-28-2010, 02:52 AM   #71
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Team Jordan? Just from this thread:

Alhazred 11
Fatal9 9
Roundball_Rock 8
OldSchoolBBall 4
juju151111 3

Real Men Wear Green 2
97 bulls 2
Kblaze8855 2
ShaqAttack3234 1
Cyclone112 1
gts 1
Juges8932 1
NBASTATMAN 1
purple32gold 1
G.O.A.T 1
magnax1 1
Leviathon1121 1
Da_Realist 1


Leviathon is a sock account. Magnax is a Jazz fan but for whatever reason he seems to always be on MJ's nuts but I did not include him.

Some other members of Team Jordan: EricForman, raptorfan07, duncan21mvp, Samuri Swoosh, guy, andgar

I like how I'm a part of "Team Jordan"(whatever the hell that is anyways), when I've said Kareem definitely has a case for GOAT and I don't have a problem with people thinking that, and I've defended Houston's decision to pick Hakeem over MJ when others have suggested that Houston made a mistake and should have taken MJ.

All of those posters you mentioned, with the exceptions of Fatal9 and duncan21mvp, are good posters.

What I have problems with, is the asinine thinking that Pippen was equal, or more important to the Bulls championships than MJ. I have acknowledged that Pippen was a very, very important player, but he wasn't on MJ's level. I personally have him ranked around top 20-30. He was a sidekick, a damn good one, like Kobe in the Lakers 3peat, but a sidekick. I also have problems with the thinking that MJ somehow has no case to be GOAT and is ranked somewhere around 4-5, when pretty much the ENTIRE basketball world has him ranked no lower than 2, most no lower than 1. Notice how it's just you and Fatal9 in the same threads over and over again trying to diminish MJ? Notice how no one else agrees with you guys? Gee, I wonder why. And don't count Desperado/Alpha Wolf/Soopa cause he's a troll and doesn't count.

One other thing I have a problem with, is the usual suspects who consider Kareem to be GOAT. With the exception of you Roundball, it's usually "Laker" and Kobe fans who proclaim Kareem GOAT. Fatal9 is a Kobe n*thugger. Check his posts on this forum. I can't recall others off the top of my head but I do remember a few other Kobe fans that used to say that. I believe Alphawolf may have called Kareem GOAT and I think the Kobe fan "Barbaroi" did too. Contrary to what you believe Roundball, they're NOT propping up guys like Kareem and the like to somehow elevate Kobe above Jordan, but instead to bring Kobe closer to Jordan when it's evident that the two are leagues apart.
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Old 01-28-2010, 03:10 AM   #72
Roundball_Rock
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

I think I may have confused you with someone else or I might have been confused by the vehemence with which you go after MJ critics.

I didn't say they were bad posters just that they were big Jordan fans. I like some of them.

Quote:
I also have problems with the thinking that MJ somehow has no case to be GOAT and is ranked somewhere around 4-5, when pretty much the ENTIRE basketball world has him ranked no lower than 2, most no lower than 1. Notice how it's just you and Fatal9 in the same threads over and over again trying to diminish MJ?

You can be 4th or 5th and have a case for GOAT.

Alpha Wolf had Wilt as GOAT, Kareem 7th. http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/rank.htm

Quote:
Contrary to what you believe Roundball, they're NOT propping up guys like Kareem and the like to somehow elevate Kobe above Jordan, but instead to bring Kobe closer to Jordan when it's evident that the two are leagues apart.

How? They are on different levels. Jordan can go no lower than 5th. Suppose Jordan is down to 5th. So what? Kobe is arguably not even top 10. Who on ISH thinks Kobe>Jordan? MJ fans and you talk about it but can you name even three legit posters who think that?

Quote:
What I have problems with, is the asinine thinking that Pippen was equal, or more important to the Bulls championships than MJ.

Asinine thinking of people like Bill Cartwright and Tex Winter?

Quote:
t is interesting and revealing that teammates, opponents and coaches consistently praise Pippen. Phil Jackson, his coach with the six-time champion Chicago Bulls, declares, 'Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league.' Former teammate and current Bulls coach Bill Cartwright flatly states that Pippen 'was as much a part of winning the championships as MJ. I don't think it would have gotten done without him.

Quote:
The Chicago Tribune's Sam Smith covered Pippen's entire career with the Bulls. In his recent column about Pippen's place in basketball history, Smith wrote:

"Jordan always felt Pippen was something special," longtime Bulls assistant Tex Winter said. "Michael realized how easy it was to play with him and how he helped make his teammates better. It's often said Jordan needed Pippen and Pippen needed Jordan. I'm not sure Jordan didn't need Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan."

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/...asketball.html
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Old 01-28-2010, 03:16 AM   #73
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by raptorfan_dr07
I like how I'm a part of "Team Jordan"(whatever the hell that is anyways), when I've said Kareem definitely has a case for GOAT and I don't have a problem with people thinking that, and I've defended Houston's decision to pick Hakeem over MJ when others have suggested that Houston made a mistake and should have taken MJ.

All of those posters you mentioned, with the exceptions of Fatal9 and duncan21mvp, are good posters.

What I have problems with, is the asinine thinking that Pippen was equal, or more important to the Bulls championships than MJ. I have acknowledged that Pippen was a very, very important player, but he wasn't on MJ's level. I personally have him ranked around top 20-30. He was a sidekick, a damn good one, like Kobe in the Lakers 3peat, but a sidekick. I also have problems with the thinking that MJ somehow has no case to be GOAT and is ranked somewhere around 4-5, when pretty much the ENTIRE basketball world has him ranked no lower than 2, most no lower than 1. Notice how it's just you and Fatal9 in the same threads over and over again trying to diminish MJ? Notice how no one else agrees with you guys? Gee, I wonder why. And don't count Desperado/Alpha Wolf/Soopa cause he's a troll and doesn't count.

One other thing I have a problem with, is the usual suspects who consider Kareem to be GOAT. With the exception of you Roundball, it's usually "Laker" and Kobe fans who proclaim Kareem GOAT. Fatal9 is a Kobe n*thugger. Check his posts on this forum. I can't recall others off the top of my head but I do remember a few other Kobe fans that used to say that. I believe Alphawolf may have called Kareem GOAT and I think the Kobe fan "Barbaroi" did too. Contrary to what you believe Roundball, they're NOT propping up guys like Kareem and the like to somehow elevate Kobe above Jordan, but instead to bring Kobe closer to Jordan when it's evident that the two are leagues apart.


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Old 01-28-2010, 03:47 AM   #74
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by raptorfan_dr07
I like how I'm a part of "Team Jordan"(whatever the hell that is anyways), when I've said Kareem definitely has a case for GOAT and I don't have a problem with people thinking that, and I've defended Houston's decision to pick Hakeem over MJ when others have suggested that Houston made a mistake and should have taken MJ.

All of those posters you mentioned, with the exceptions of Fatal9 and duncan21mvp, are good posters.

What I have problems with, is the asinine thinking that Pippen was equal, or more important to the Bulls championships than MJ. I have acknowledged that Pippen was a very, very important player, but he wasn't on MJ's level. I personally have him ranked around top 20-30. He was a sidekick, a damn good one, like Kobe in the Lakers 3peat, but a sidekick. I also have problems with the thinking that MJ somehow has no case to be GOAT and is ranked somewhere around 4-5, when pretty much the ENTIRE basketball world has him ranked no lower than 2, most no lower than 1. Notice how it's just you and Fatal9 in the same threads over and over again trying to diminish MJ? Notice how no one else agrees with you guys? Gee, I wonder why. And don't count Desperado/Alpha Wolf/Soopa cause he's a troll and doesn't count.

One other thing I have a problem with, is the usual suspects who consider Kareem to be GOAT. With the exception of you Roundball, it's usually "Laker" and Kobe fans who proclaim Kareem GOAT. Fatal9 is a Kobe n*thugger. Check his posts on this forum. I can't recall others off the top of my head but I do remember a few other Kobe fans that used to say that. I believe Alphawolf may have called Kareem GOAT and I think the Kobe fan "Barbaroi" did too. Contrary to what you believe Roundball, they're NOT propping up guys like Kareem and the like to somehow elevate Kobe above Jordan, but instead to bring Kobe closer to Jordan when it's evident that the two are leagues apart.

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