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  1. #31
    Glove GP_20's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    Nash is the better scorer and can take over games, while Stockton is the better passer/playmaker and defender.

    Toss-Up.

  2. #32
    Good college starter EricForman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    Quote Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
    I don't disagree with anything else you said except this. If anything it's been proven he didn't deserve those MVP's. He still has no rings and no finals appearances. He is one of two MVP's ever not to at least make it to the finals as his teams best player.
    He faced some really strong teams though. It's not like he stunked it up and lost to an inferior team. I mean 05 and 07 Spurs (and we all remember how close 07 was) were strong. We talking about a top ten player all time in his prime. 06 the Suns just had bad luck--Amare and Kurt Thomas was out. WIth just one of those guys they probably beat the Mavs.

    MVP is a regular season award, you can't hold the fact he's ran into strong teams in the playoffs against him.

    I was originally one of those guys who thought Nash was a fluke too. Nash beating Shaq for MVP was absolutely the craziest thing ever in my eyes in 2005. But really look at Nash now. He has proven that he can win with that system with ANYONE. Remember when detractors said it was only cause he has a freak of nature in Amare? Or remember how people say it's cause Marion is so versatile? Nash has done it without both. He's running with Channing Frye and getting similar results out of him.

    As long as you dont put scrubs around Nash he gets something out of them and they win. Really, all Nash needs is one or two lanky forwards and a shooter and a slasher and he'll get wins. Team him with say, Ty Thomas, Tyson Chandler, JJ Reddick and like, Jamario Moon and he leads that team to 48 wins probably.

    He's also quite possibly the best over 35 point guard ever right now. So really, Nash has proven he belongs in the conversation with other greats. Maybe back to back MVPs is a bit much. But he deserves at least one.

  3. #33
    Root Of All Evil
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    Quote Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
    There are a lot of similarities in how they play actually...they both are excellent shooters who still think pass first, they are high volume assist guys, both are great in the pick and roll, both like to push the tempo, both played at prime level into their thirties etc etc etc.
    You just named similar albeit universal basketball skills. Nash / Stockton are great in the pick and role. Would anyone sare say Chris Paul plays like Nash / Stockton. No ... the comparison is made via race. Nash plays NOTHING like John Stockton. Nash handles the ball way more, creates off the dribble better, has more flash and pizzaz to his game than Stockton ever did ... Nash potentially is the better passer via superior passing skills / court vision. Nash plays better with either hand. Nash is just as good of a shooter as Stockton in terms of a set shot, Nash is WAY better at shooting off the dribble than Stockton. Nash creates HIS shot better than Stockton could do for himself.

    Stockton and Malone ran a break neck style for a period of time, but it was different from Nash's tempo. Nash holds the ball more than Stockton ever did. Stockton is a superior man defender / tenacious as can be, but Nash is a crafty defender in his own right. He plays angles, draws charges very well. Nash is underrated on defense.

    Nash is playing at a higher level now in his thirties than Stockton was in his thirties. Nash is THE dude (Lebowski style) on his team, and Stockton was numero dos on the Jazz. Nash holds much more weight for his team over the past 5 - 6 years than Stockton EVER did for the Jazz.

    The comparison is being made via race and skin color. That's all.

    And at least if they were going to do that they could've picked a better 90's counterpart to compare Nash to ... a prime Mark Price would've been better.

  4. #34
    Cavs for life BigTicket's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    Quote Originally Posted by DC Zephyrs
    If we're just going by peak play, you could definately make a case for Nash. He's just as good a passer, and he is one of the best shooters of all time. He's arguably a better offensive player than Stockton, although he's obviously not as good a defender. I'll go with Stock, but it's close.
    Nash is a great passer, but he's not as good as Stockton was. Stockton had 8 straight season with 12+ apg, Nash has never had 1.

  5. #35
    Root Of All Evil
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    Quote Originally Posted by GP_20
    Nash is the better scorer and can take over games, while Stockton is the better passer/playmaker and defender.

    Toss-Up.
    Nash is the better scorer / passer / playmaker

    Stockton is the better defender

  6. #36
    Root Of All Evil
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTicket
    Nash is a great passer, but he's not as good as Stockton was. Stockton had 8 straight season with 12+ apg, Nash has never had 1.
    Because Nash also scores more than Stockton ... not to mention, does Nash have anyone whose as good of a PF as Karl Malone (the best pick and pop big man of all time) to rack up EASY dimes with? No ... Nash creates more plays off the dribble for others than Stockton does. Stockton was surrounded with players who had AUTOMATIC jumpers. Thus, easy assists. Nash creates way more off the dribble in terms of creating for others.

  7. #37
    Good college starter EricForman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTicket

    Not saying Nash isn't a great player, or that he isn't top 50 alltime, but it just annoys me how people talk about that 54 win season, as if we're supposed to be awed that an all-nba pg + an all-nba PF + solid roleplayers + great coach = 54 wins. I never understood why that was supposed to be surprising ?

    I would bet anything that swap Iverson with Nash and the 06 Suns suck. Or put Nash on them Sixers squad from 04 to 06 that Iverson couldnt do nothing with and Nash turns them into 50 win ECFinalists.

    Of course Marion put up numbers before Nash. But Marion is the type of player that plays the same way when he's on a 12 win team or a 60 win team. It's like he's just...there. Ultimately Nash drives the team and makes them win. It's been proven because other guys have come and gone. Really, if you say go back in time to 2005, take away Amare (whom everyone thought was a beast at the time) and put in current Grant Hill or Channing Frye. You think the Suns drop off and become an 8th seed? They probably still win 54 or 55. Now what sense does this make? No way is current Hill as good as Amare, but Nash would find a way to get more from everyone else to make up for whatever diff in production between 05 Amare and current Grant Hill. Of course this is just my opinion and guess, but I believe this. Nash has done enough to show you can interchange any part of the Suns team.

    If you dont think he's top 50. THat's okay that is debatable. we'll just agree to disagree. I think Nash this decade has been one of the greatest offensive guards ever. Not just PPG, but total offense.
    Last edited by EricForman; 01-16-2010 at 05:10 PM.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTicket
    Nash is a great passer, but he's not as good as Stockton was. Stockton had 8 straight season with 12+ apg, Nash has never had 1.
    I'm a big Stockton fan, but his assists numbers are inflated, even more so than Nash's. He's one of the greatest passers ever, but he's not getting 14.5 assists a game on any other team or any other system, ever.

    I've seen enough of Nash and enough of Stockton to know that if Nash wasn't as good a passer as Stockton, he was very close.

  9. #39
    Cavs for life BigTicket's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Swoosh
    Because Nash also scores more than Stockton ... not to mention, does Nash have anyone whose as good of a PF as Karl Malone (the best pick and pop big man of all time) to rack up EASY dimes with? No ... Nash creates more plays off the dribble for others than Stockton does. Stockton was surrounded with players who had AUTOMATIC jumpers. Thus, easy assists. Nash creates way more off the dribble in terms of creating for others.
    Amare may not be Karl Malone, but he's not exactly a scrub either, and the Suns have a ton of shooters around Nash.

    Stockton has 5 of the 6 best seasons ever in terms of apg, and the assist record is his by such a dominant margin that its doubtful it will ever be broken (Nash is about to turn 36, and he has half as many). The only player who should ever be argued as an equal passer to Stockton is Magic.

  10. #40
    Root Of All Evil
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTicket
    Amare may not be Karl Malone, but he's not exactly a scrub either
    Amare's a superstar player no doubt ... but I'm saying with Malone you get easy / effortless plays. Just a simple pass if the defender rolls with Stockton to stop dribble penetration and he kicks it to Malone who was automatic from the elbow extended. Amare's game is different, Nash gets him the ball then he'll move via his own dribble / post moves etc. Negates some assists in the process.

  11. #41
    Scott Hastings Fan G.O.A.T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    Quote Originally Posted by EricForman
    He faced some really strong teams though. It's not like he stunked it up and lost to an inferior team. I mean 05 and 07 Spurs (and we all remember how close 07 was) were strong. We talking about a top ten player all time in his prime. 06 the Suns just had bad luck--Amare and Kurt Thomas was out. WIth just one of those guys they probably beat the Mavs.

    MVP is a regular season award, you can't hold the fact he's ran into strong teams in the playoffs against him.

    I was originally one of those guys who thought Nash was a fluke too. Nash beating Shaq for MVP was absolutely the craziest thing ever in my eyes in 2005. But really look at Nash now. He has proven that he can win with that system with ANYONE. Remember when detractors said it was only cause he has a freak of nature in Amare? Or remember how people say it's cause Marion is so versatile? Nash has done it without both. He's running with Channing Frye and getting similar results out of him.

    As long as you dont put scrubs around Nash he gets something out of them and they win. Really, all Nash needs is one or two lanky forwards and a shooter and a slasher and he'll get wins. Team him with say, Ty Thomas, Tyson Chandler, JJ Reddick and like, Jamario Moon and he leads that team to 48 wins probably.

    He's also quite possibly the best over 35 point guard ever right now. So really, Nash has proven he belongs in the conversation with other greats. Maybe back to back MVPs is a bit much. But he deserves at least one.

    I can't ever justify it. he was never a top five player in my eyes and the Suns were never legit title contenders. That was my impression of them when they started out hot in 2005 and it's never changed.

    It's much like John Stockton, who I think is an all-time great as well, but rightfully was never a top four MVP vote getter.

  12. #42
    Scott Hastings Fan G.O.A.T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Swoosh
    You just named similar albeit universal basketball skills. Nash / Stockton are great in the pick and role. Would anyone sare say Chris Paul plays like Nash / Stockton. No ... the comparison is made via race. Nash plays NOTHING like John Stockton. Nash handles the ball way more, creates off the dribble better, has more flash and pizzaz to his game than Stockton ever did ... Nash potentially is the better passer via superior passing skills / court vision. Nash plays better with either hand. Nash is just as good of a shooter as Stockton in terms of a set shot, Nash is WAY better at shooting off the dribble than Stockton. Nash creates HIS shot better than Stockton could do for himself.

    Stockton and Malone ran a break neck style for a period of time, but it was different from Nash's tempo. Nash holds the ball more than Stockton ever did. Stockton is a superior man defender / tenacious as can be, but Nash is a crafty defender in his own right. He plays angles, draws charges very well. Nash is underrated on defense.

    Nash is playing at a higher level now in his thirties than Stockton was in his thirties. Nash is THE dude (Lebowski style) on his team, and Stockton was numero dos on the Jazz. Nash holds much more weight for his team over the past 5 - 6 years than Stockton EVER did for the Jazz.

    The comparison is being made via race and skin color. That's all.

    And at least if they were going to do that they could've picked a better 90's counterpart to compare Nash to ... a prime Mark Price would've been better.
    I disagree with almost everything you say here. Stockton has all-time great court vision and passing skills. Created his own shot just as well as Nash when he needed to and threw plenty of no look and behind the back passes.

    I just think you're reaching because it seems too obvious since they are both white. And yes I'd say Chris Paul plays exactly like John Stockton (on the perimeter), he's just much bigger, stronger and more athletic and so his game changes when he gets in the lane to something Stockton could never do.

  13. #43
    #HEATNATION Andrei89's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    John who?>

  14. #44
    phal5 catch24's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    If my team ran a fast run and gun pace, I'd go with Nash. If I want an all around point guard who has the ability to play on both ends, give me Stockton. Their leadership skills are a wash.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

    If we're going by their peaks, I'll take John Stockton easily. 14.5 assists per game, 2.7 steals, and 17 PPG on .514 FG% ? That's simply amazing. The next season (1991) averaging basically the same thing. And the fact that Sloans Jazz player at a slower pace is only more impressive when looking at his seasons of 1100+ assists. From 88 to 95, Stockton was averaging more assists per game than Nash ever has - 8 straight seasons of 12+ assists per game. If that's not consistency, I don't know what is. Maybe he's not as good of a three point shooter from year to year, but it's not like he hasn't had seasons in the mid-40's % wise... Stockton was def one of my favorite players growing up, wouldn't hesitate to take him over Nash.

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