Rank the top 5 players in the league.

[Cone]

lol @ kevin love being top 10

[Doranku]

1. KD
2. Bran
3. Westbrook
4. CP3
5. Davis

[Smook A.]

And that's just the start..there's several players after that who all are either better (right now or into next year) or have a good case..like Love, Davis, Lillard, Melo, etc.

You actually think Damian Lillard has a good case of being a better player than Dwight Howard? Yeah, Lillard is a great offensive player, but really... what else is he good at? His defense is horrible, he's not really much of a playmaker (Only averaged 5.6 apg last season), and his FG% is just barely over 40%. And no i'm not saying this just because he lit up the Rockets in the playoffs and sent us home with that amazing game-winner... no. I'm actually not butthurt at all about that anymore.

Dwight may not be a good offensive player, but that doesn't mean he can't give a team 18-20 points every night. His defense might not be as good as it used to but he can still block shots here and there and can change a players shots just by jumping up and reaching as high as he can. He altered a lot of floaters and layups last season and that's one of the main reasons why he's still an amazing defensive player.

Give me a guy who averages 18/12/2/2/1 on 60% TS and plays greats defense over a guy who plays below-average defense and puts up 21/6/3/1/0.3 on 57% TS.

Their production doesn't change? Did Blake not go from 18/8 on 57% TS in 2012-13 to 24/10 on 58% TS in 2013-14? The dude has clearly elevated his game from star level to borderline superstar level.

Listen, I love Blake Griffin and I think he's one of the most exciting NBA players right now but he barely elevated his game. His jumper really did improve, but just by looking at his numbers from previous seasons, he's actually not that different. In 2012-2013 his numbers went down. I honestly think that was just a fluke season, because in his 1st NBA season, Blake was putting up 22.5 ppg/12.1 rpg/4 apg/0.8 spg/0.5 bpg on 55% TS. Last season he averaged 24 ppg/9.5 rpg/4 apg/1.2 spg/0.6 bpg on 58% TS. Compare those two seasons and look at the numbers... not really much of change, am I correct? Obviously his ppg went up (Only by 2 though), his rebounding went down probably because of DeAndre Jordan. Also his apg, bpg, and spg are nearly all the same.

As an overall player (Joakim Noah) he doesn't sniff the top 10, not even top 15.

I agree that he isn't a top 10 player at all, but in my opinion, from last season he definitely had to be in the top 15. He was playing tremendously all-around. I remember he had a couple triple-doubles and without him, the Bulls easily would've been as bad as the Detroit Pistons or Boston Celtics.

Noah was averaging what... about 13 ppg/11.3 rpg/5.4 apg/1.2 spg/1.5 bpg on 53% TS and he won the DPOY. He was an amazing defensive player last year. Just his defense alone helped the Bulls win an extra 5-10 games. Not to mention, he was also a really good passer, especially for his position. 5.4 apg is Vlade Divac level. After the all-star game, Noah was averaging 7 apg. 7.5 in March and 7.0 in April.

For me the top players last season were... LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, Russell Westbrook, Anthony Davis, Stephen Curry, Paul George, Kevin Love, Carmelo Anthony, James Harden, LaMarcus Aldridge, Dwight Howard, and Joakim Noah. That's 14 players right there. The 15th best player last year would either have to be Lillard, Wall, or Dragic.

This era is stacked with semi-young but not quite at their peak stars...guys who are like 23-25 years old, so old enough to do serious damage in the league but not quite at their best. Guys like...

Kevin Durant
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
Russell Westbrook
Paul George
Steph Curry
Derrick Rose
Damian Lillard
John Wall
Demarcus Cousins
Kyrie Irving
Klay Thompson
Kawhi Leonard
Demar Derozan

Alright, your hate for James Harden is really starting to piss me off. I get it... his defense is absolutely shit and he played horrendously vs the Portland Trail Blazers in the playoffs. How in the world can you have guys like Kyrie, Lillard, Steph, and Love there if they're horrible at defense too. James Harden isn't the only bad defender in this league... Guys like Kyrie, Boogie, and Love didn't even make the playoffs and you're gonna put those guys over Harden? Really?

I don't even think Kyrie, Lillard, Klay Thompson and probably even DeRozan are better than James Harden overall. In your previous post you told AW that he can't just put Dwight in the top 5 just because he had a good postseason (I don't think he's top 5 either, btw). I mentioned this because you had Lillard in there. Yes, he had a good playoffs (A really good one, actually) but think about it... is he really better than Harden? We know both of them are bad defenders, but Harden is the better offensive player, rebounder, passer and he can steal the ball better... same with him vs Kyrie. I don't understand how you can put them over Harden. And just to clear it up, IM NOT being a homer. I'm just saying what I think is true. If I was being a homer I'd say Harden is better than half those guys... which I didn't.

All in all, I honestly feel like you underrate Harden here and its getting out of hand. You hate his guts... I get it, but that doesn't mean he's a bad player like you say he is.

[ArbitraryWater]

No, he actually can't anymore. Which is my point.

Over the course of a season he put up 18/12 with great but not DPOY-caliber defense. If he could be a consistent 22/13 player with DPOY defense...he would've put up those stats and been the DPOY. There's a reason why the Rockets went from the 16th to the 13th best defense...he's great defensively, but he's just not the incredible defensive force he was 3-4 years ago. And him having James Harden should have no relevance to his production and defense. They would run more offense through him if he had a reliable, skilled post skill set and wasn't turnover prone when he got the ball and was pressured down low.

Even during his peak 22ppg season in Orlando..he was a generational athlete for his position and they ran EVERYTHING through him.

Yeah, he torched Portland for 6 games this year. But if we factor in the entire regular season before that, he's shown that he's not exactly the best at adjusting his game that well to another star caliber offensive player on his team..because he's not someone you can count on every single night to just throw the ball to down low and say "score right now".

Give me 24/4/9/2 on 61% TS Steph Curry who lead his team to 51 wins as the #1. Obviously Lebron and KD. Give me Westbrook..who torched the Grizzlies, went toe-to-toe if not outplayed another top 2 PG against the Clippers, and straight up embarrassed one of the best PGs in the game in the WCF. Give me Chris Paul who put up 19/4/11/3 on 58% TS and whose playoff run is totally underrated because of just a few boneheaded plays. Give me CP3's own teammate Blake Griffin who was 3rd in MVP voting, putting up 28/8/4/1/1 for almost a month and a half and leading his team to a good record without CP3. Give me Lamarcus Aldridge who put up 23/11/3/1/1 while leading his team to the same record as the back-to-back defending champions and absolutely slaughtering the Rockets with back-to-back 40 point games in the first round. And that's just the start..there's several players after that who all are either better (right now or into next year) or have a good case..like Love, Davis, Lillard, Melo, etc.

How can his defense be better than Joakim Noah's or Marc Gasol's, yet not be DPOTY caliber Defense?

My main Point is, yes, Howard COULD average exactly that if you run your offense through him first, and not have Harden the chucker on his Team...

Howard in Orlando also created all the spacing for his shooters... Had alot of Hockey Assists.

Only ONE of Garnett's Minny Teams was a top 10 defensive Team... ONE.

"Him having James Harden should have no relevance to his production or defense" *biggumsface

Do you know how many times People blow by Harden? How many times Howard needs to help out? He's been doing this for 2 consecutive years now... In 2013 it was with Kobe. He saved those Teams from being even worse defensively, I saw it every time I watched them Play..

His Efficiency is showing no decrease, logically AND from what he did in the Playoffs, I can TELL you that he could average that.

And lettuce be reality here, the Warriors should have win a bit more than 51 wins... I'm not gonna blame Curry (Mark Jackson, ugh), he was perhaps a top 3 offensive player in the regular season, but I needed more in the Playoffs.


Give me Chris Paul? Yeah... Blake Griffin? Yeah... (LeBron/KD obv)... Then it gets tight for me. I don't have much of a Problem with Westbrook... Now I'd take Howard. Small case for Curry, IMO.

7th at worst... there's no way Aldridge is over Howard. This will be my final Point, 7th is as low as he should go...Lillard and Melo? Just no...

Where would you put Howard? 8?

Davis might just be the guy to go with from now on... We'll see.

This just makes me realize that the depth of this current Era is actually pretty nice IMO. Not as many SUPERSTARS / ATG Prospects, but some grooming are. Not very top heavy, but depth is pretty solid.

[Smook A.]

lol @ kevin love being top 10

He may be a shit defender but he really impacted the Wolves well by putting up some of the best numbers in the league. 26 ppg/12.5 rpg/4.4 apg/0.8 spg/0.5 bpg on 59% TS. If Wolves actually stayed healthy for the whole season, then they might've been able to sneak into the playoffs. Don't forget, most of their good players were injured. Pekovic was out for 30 games, Luc Mbah A Moute only played 64 games overall (55 for Timberwolves), Chase Budinger missed 41 games and Kevin Martin missed 14. If everyone stayed healthy, they easily could've won 5-10 extra games.

The only reason why people view Kevin Love as "empty stats" or say things like "This guy isn't a top 10 player" is because of the lack of success his team has. He's never made it into the playoffs and he's been in the league for 6 seasons. I'm sure people would view him as a borderline top 5 player if the Wolves won something like... 50 games last season.

[Milbuck]

How can his defense be better than Joakim Noah's or Marc Gasol's, yet not be DPOTY caliber Defense?

Since the back surgery, he's marginally better than them at his absolute best. But over the course of 82 games it's entirely debatable between them..as of right now he's just not the athletic monster he used to be, hence his shot blocking, rotations, etc. are all back down to earth with other great defensive centers. He's not some defensive god, which he pretty much was with Orlando.

My main Point is, yes, Howard COULD average exactly that if you run your offense through him first, and not have Harden the chucker on his Team...

Howard in Orlando also created all the spacing for his shooters... Had alot of Hockey Assists.

Oh please..they ran the offense through him there because he was DOMINANT. They don't run their offense through him exclusively anymore because he's 1) athletically not the same player, while 2) barely improving his offensive skill set at all, therefore not allowing him to compensate for the physical decline.

They didn't build the entire Rockets team around him for another reason...and here's the part where I give Harden his due....Harden is a dynamic offensive player who can get you a shot whenever you need it. His style of play goes to shit (free throws) when you pressure him hard, but all in all he's a vastly more complete offensive weapon than Howard in just about every way.

Of course Howard COULD give you 20-22ppg as the #1 option...any offensive star can do that. But if he's your #1 option, you're not winning jack shit.

He's just not a reliable post scorer. We can sit here and delude ourselves to suit certain agendas, but that's the reality. He was that guy in Orlando because he was so physically dominant that he could give you an easy 25-30+ points on a good night purely out of athleticism and a few basic moves. With that same athleticism compromised, we're now seeing more and more of his flaws highlighted.

- He's turnover prone. His ability to post up in the first place is fundamentally flawed...he doesn't have a clear idea of where to go, how to establish position, and when he's in his spot he's prone to getting stripped.

- His post skill set is still very limited. I gave him props after the postseason for showing some nice moves..but that's a 6 game sample size. We have yet to see him, since the back injury, show a consistent and reliable fundamental post skill set. Because I sure as hell know he wasn't doing the stuff he did against Portland, against every other team over an 82 game season.

Only ONE of Garnett's Minny Teams was a top 10 defensive Team... ONE.

He was there the entire time..it's not a situation where we can quantify the defense before he was there and when he got there. He took shit teams to respectable heights. Could you imagine how ****ing awful those Minny teams would've been defensively without KG?

What we CAN quantify about KG is how he took a 16th ranked Celtics defense in 2007 and was a huge part of transforming it (along with Thibs) into an all time great #1 ranked defense.

If Howard was the same defensive force he was with Orlando in Houston...they sure as hell wouldn't have improved just 3 spots defensively.

"Him having James Harden should have no relevance to his production or defense" *biggumsface

Do you know how many times People blow by Harden? How many times Howard needs to help out? He's been doing this for 2 consecutive years now... In 2013 it was with Kobe. He saved those Teams from being even worse defensively, I saw it every time I watched them Play..

Whoop dee ****ing doo. Teams have shit defenders. That's the point of having an elite defensive anchor and shot blocker. He's dealt with that responsibility his whole career.

And it's not like the whole Rockets squad is abysmal defensively. Beverley is great, Parsons was good, Lin was average or above average on most nights, Asik was a stud, etc.

Are we really gonna sit here and act like ONE teammate's flaws can negatively affect a "top 5" player's game so heavily over the course of an entire season?

His Efficiency is showing no decrease, logically AND from what he did in the Playoffs, I can TELL you that he could average that.

Uh, of course his efficiency wouldn't decrease. He's playing with another dynamic offensive weapon and taking less shots.

This is all just a juiced up version of the per-36 argument for average players..."if he took more shots and they ran more offense through him he'd average HOF numbers"...no, he wouldn't.

If you seriously think Howard, being a shell of his former self athletically and making minimal progress in terms of post skills, can average 26/14 over the course of an entire regular season, I don't know what to tell you. That is delusion of the highest order and I know you know that.

And lettuce be reality here, the Warriors should have win a bit more than 51 wins... I'm not gonna blame Curry (Mark Jackson, ugh), he was perhaps a top 3 offensive player in the regular season, but I needed more in the Playoffs.

Again with the small sample sizes. One series is not enough to kill a player. Seriously was Lebron not a top 10 player after his 2011 finals? What about Kobe after the 2004 finals? On the other end, are you suggesting Westbrook is actually better than Durant?

Curry put up 24/4/9/2 on 61% TS with a net On/Off of +14.0 in the regular season and +37.0 in the playoffs. He is statistically one of the highest impact players in the game..he is weak defensively but he is one of the most dangerous offensive weapons in the game he compensates for it 100% and then some.

The only reason they didn't take out the Clippers is because their defensive anchor in Bogut went down...as for 51 games...I'm positive they would've won more if both Iggy and Bogut didn't miss almost 20 games. They were an elite, 55-60 win caliber team when healthy.

Give me Chris Paul? Yeah... Blake Griffin? Yeah... (LeBron/KD obv)... Then it gets tight for me. I don't have much of a Problem with Westbrook... Now I'd take Howard. Small case for Curry, IMO.

Curry is a better player than Dwight. I'm sorry, read above for my points, whatever, but it is what it is. Curry is one of the most underrated players both right now and historically. People are sleeping on just how ****ing good this dude is.

7th at worst... there's no way Aldridge is over Howard. This will be my final Point, 7th is as low as he should go...Lillard and Melo? Just no...

For Lillard, I said into next year..as in a projection of where I think they'll end up. I don't think it's that ludicrous to think Lillard after another year of development can be better than Dwight who doesn't seem to be improving at all.

Aldridge had a better regular season, and raped the Rockets in the postseason. I'm taking the elite offensive weapon and average defender over the above average offensive and great defensive player.

Melo has shown that if you put a good team around him, he'll win you games. What happened when he had a well constructed defensive team around him? He put up 29/7/3/1/1 on 56% TS and led the Knicks to 54 wins..and who was his best offensive teammate..? JR Smith..?

Where would you put Howard? 8?

Lebron
Durant
Westbrook
CP3
Blake
Curry
Davis
Aldridge
Love
Melo
Dwight

I have him around #11. This upcoming year will be completely different though. Rose is 100% physically, so he could potentially pass all of them but Lebron/KD and probably Westbrook by season's end. Then there's so many guys who can break into top-10 status like Wall, Lillard, Irving, Cousins, Dragic, (if he was healthy) Paul George, etc.

Davis might just be the guy to go with from now on... We'll see.

It's not even a question for me. I'm projecting here a bit again, but there's zero doubt in my mind that by the end of this upcoming season Davis will have completely surpassed Dwight as a player. There's already an argument for it now, but I'll hold off on that.

This just makes me realize that the depth of this current Era is actually pretty nice IMO. Not as many SUPERSTARS / ATG Prospects, but some grooming are. Not very top heavy, but depth is pretty solid.

This we can agree on. Nostagia-driven negativity is killing the appreciation for this era..but there's a TON of talent right now.

[DaSeba5]

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. CP3
4. Westbrook
5. Davis or Griffin

[All Net]

lol @ kevin love being top 10

Yeah, he's higher than that.

[Smook A.]

Curry is a better player than Dwight. I'm sorry, read above for my points, whatever, but it is what it is. Curry is one of the most underrated players both right now and historically. People are sleeping on just how ****ing good this dude is.

Most people had Curry at the 6th or 7th best player last season. He's not underrated at all, imo. That's the perfect spot for him. You're probably forgetting the fact that he's a pretty bad defender even when he tries. Great player overall, nonetheless.

[guy]

This just makes me realize that the depth of this current Era is actually pretty nice IMO. Not as many SUPERSTARS / ATG Prospects, but some grooming are. Not very top heavy, but depth is pretty solid.

That's misleading though. Depth in the current era is always going to be perceived better then before because no one really remembers the 15th-30th best players from 10, 20, or 30 years ago. And no one will really remember the same of this era 10, 20, or 30 years from now.

For example, guys like Glenn Robinson, Allan Houston, Sam Cassell, or Richard Hamilton won't really come up much today, but guys like Klay Thompson, Kyle Lowry, Chandler Parsons, and Demar Derozan will even though they aren't really any better and will probably be forgotten when this era is over.