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Old 07-17-2013, 12:08 AM   #31
PHILA
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by longtime lurker
It might make wanna be tough guys that get bold with a gun think twice before escalating a situation.



A View From Above - Wilt Chamberlain (1991)

A topic that I feel needs a lot more attention paid to it is the idea of owning firearms. To sell weapons like Uzis, assault rifles, and AK-47s— weapons used in gang warfare and major criminal offences—is ridiculous. I think— at least I hope— most people will agree with me there. But I also feel strongly that there are way too many crazies out there who like the feeling of power that a concealed weapon gives them. That's why I'm also very much against handguns. True, you do need some way to protect your family and property. I personally feel that bigger is better here; it's probably safer to own a tank with a 55mm cannon mounted on it than any concealed handgun. If you can't get a tank, a shotgun is the best choice. It will stop your villain— or at least deter him, whether you can shoot it or not. Wouldn't you feel safer if your wife or loved one had a shotgun as protection, where all she had to do is point it? To me, that seems to be more protection than trying to use a puny pistol. Most handguns are only used in little bullshit ways, like "settling" petty arguments in bars. Out of nowhere someone pulls a gun. (If he was carrying a shotgun you never would have argued with him. Or he wouldn't have been granted entrance into the bar in the first place.) The point is that concealed weapons cause the most damage and the most trouble. They should be outlawed, and they should no longer be made. Ban them all. Even cops don't need them; shotguns are more persuasive.

I'm against all group labeling: Baptist, black, Republican, Armenian, Irish, female, male. I'm against every label. Every time we form a group we form a prejudice. Every group label you can think of has opposition from another group. The Republicans don't like the Democrats just because they're Democrats, even if the platforms they're running on are almost the same. Irish Protestants don't like Catholics, even if both are hard-working coal miners from exactly the same background. I believe it's these labels we put on ourselves, and the groups we belong to, that cause most of the prejudice we have today. Groups breed prejudice and hate. The more we can do away with group labeling the better we're going to be as a human race.






Wilt: Just Like Any Other 7-Foot Black Millionaire who Lives Next Door - Wilt Chamberlain (1973)

I got stopped by a cop in New York, and he damn near shot me. I'd bought a nightclub in Harlem several years earlier - Big Wilt's Small Paradise - and after I'd worked 18 hours a day one off-season, learning the business, I'd brought in a friend to manage the place for me. I always try to stop by when I'm in New York, and I was on my way back from there to my apartment, on Central Park West, when this cop started following me. He pulled me over, and said, "Let me see your license, boy."

I gave him the license, and asked him what the problem was.

"Be with you in a minute, boy," he said.

He kept calling me "boy," and I didn't like it much. I told him my name was on my driver's license, "and I'd suggest you use it."

This was just a few nights after the Watts riot, and cops everywhere were even more uptight than usual around blacks. He pulled his gun out of his holster, stuck it in the window about six inches from my head and cocked it. I said, "OK, mother-****er, you cocked that thing, you might as well pull the trigger." Then I started to get out of the car. Fortunately for me, the cop backed off. He pulled his gun away and apologized, and I snatched my license back and roared off, with him still standing there, holding his gun. It wasn't until I got home and got into bed that I realized how close I'd come to getting my head blown off.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:17 AM   #32
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by PHILA
A View From Above - Wilt Chamberlain (1991)

A topic that I feel needs a lot more attention paid to it is the idea of owning firearms. To sell weapons like Uzis, assault rifles, and AK-47s— weapons used in gang warfare and major criminal offences—is ridiculous. I think— at least I hope— most people will agree with me there. But I also feel strongly that there are way too many crazies out there who like the feeling of power that a concealed weapon gives them. That's why I'm also very much against handguns. True, you do need some way to protect your family and property. I personally feel that bigger is better here; it's probably safer to own a tank with a 55mm cannon mounted on it than any concealed handgun. If you can't get a tank, a shotgun is the best choice. It will stop your villain— or at least deter him, whether you can shoot it or not. Wouldn't you feel safer if your wife or loved one had a shotgun as protection, where all she had to do is point it? To me, that seems to be more protection than trying to use a puny pistol. Most handguns are only used in little bullshit ways, like "settling" petty arguments in bars. Out of nowhere someone pulls a gun. (If he was carrying a shotgun you never would have argued with him. Or he wouldn't have been granted entrance into the bar in the first place.) The point is that concealed weapons cause the most damage and the most trouble. They should be outlawed, and they should no longer be made. Ban them all. Even cops don't need them; shotguns are more persuasive.

I'm against all group labeling: Baptist, black, Republican, Armenian, Irish, female, male. I'm against every label. Every time we form a group we form a prejudice. Every group label you can think of has opposition from another group. The Republicans don't like the Democrats just because they're Democrats, even if the platforms they're running on are almost the same. Irish Protestants don't like Catholics, even if both are hard-working coal miners from exactly the same background. I believe it's these labels we put on ourselves, and the groups we belong to, that cause most of the prejudice we have today. Groups breed prejudice and hate. The more we can do away with group labeling the better we're going to be as a human race.






Wilt: Just Like Any Other 7-Foot Black Millionaire who Lives Next Door - Wilt Chamberlain (1973)

I got stopped by a cop in New York, and he damn near shot me. I'd bought a nightclub in Harlem several years earlier - Big Wilt's Small Paradise - and after I'd worked 18 hours a day one off-season, learning the business, I'd brought in a friend to manage the place for me. I always try to stop by when I'm in New York, and I was on my way back from there to my apartment, on Central Park West, when this cop started following me. He pulled me over, and said, "Let me see your license, boy."

I gave him the license, and asked him what the problem was.

"Be with you in a minute, boy," he said.

He kept calling me "boy," and I didn't like it much. I told him my name was on my driver's license, "and I'd suggest you use it."

This was just a few nights after the Watts riot, and cops everywhere were even more uptight than usual around blacks. He pulled his gun out of his holster, stuck it in the window about six inches from my head and cocked it. I said, "OK, mother-****er, you cocked that thing, you might as well pull the trigger." Then I started to get out of the car. Fortunately for me, the cop backed off. He pulled his gun away and apologized, and I snatched my license back and roared off, with him still standing there, holding his gun. It wasn't until I got home and got into bed that I realized how close I'd come to getting my head blown off.

Personally I have always wanted to live in a country like Japan and Sweden without much crime and strict gun laws.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:18 AM   #33
Rasheed1
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

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Originally Posted by MavsSuperFan
Ok what is the threshold?

When pro choice protesters go out and stay they are supporting a woman's right to choose. And say a pro life person thinks they are advocating for the murder of babies. This person is incensed that these people would go out there and promote what he considers baby murder. Have the pro life protesters provoked him into a fight?

In our society even people as vile as the westboro church shouldnt get assaulted for expressing their ideas. Even when they go picket the funerals of soldiers. We are not animals we chose what we do.

Edit: also that police officer is wrong for doing that.



I think each situation has to be judged in itself. but I dont believe the you can say anything you want to somebody, and provoke them in any manner you please and then claim self defense if they punch you and you shoot them..

the whole confrontation needs to be considered, and not just the physical part.

people like to act like words dont matter, but they do indeed matter..

words are how we communicate, words can make people love you... words can also make people kill you..

what is said needs to be considered also when decided who is responsible for these incidents..

otherwise you will have people killing other people and claiming self defense in really ridiculous situations..
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:32 AM   #34
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

Words hurt racists like Rasheed. They can cut like glass and cause him to go into fits of violent rage. Not his fault, it's the fault of the damn words.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:32 AM   #35
PHILA
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by MavsSuperFan
Personally I have always wanted to live in a country like Japan and Sweden without much crime and strict gun laws.


Not that I agree with everything the Dipper said, it's obvious there are professions where a concealed weapon may be necessary, like an undercover cop or security guard. Even then there are numerous instances depending on the situation where an officer who is undercover will not carry their weapon. I don't know about others here but IMO the best defense is clearly prevention.



http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2001/...eal010613.html

June 13, 2001

Crawford said his security plan is relatively simple, although it's difficult to imagine anyone wanting to challenge O'Neal.

"You don't need a lot, it's all preventive stuff," Crawford said. "The more people around, the greater the chances are of something happening.

"The whole objective is to stay away from trouble, see trouble before it happens. I know what I'm doing.

"We try to stay out of physical confrontations. Mike Tyson could have saved millions of dollars with this system - keep it simple.

"You have to have people around who have a security background."

"Uncle Jerome is the first to walk away. We don't want to put ourselves in that position."

Last edited by PHILA : 07-17-2013 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:03 AM   #36
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

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Originally Posted by PHILA
Not that I agree with everything the Dipper said, it's obvious there are professions where a concealed weapon may be necessary, like an undercover cop or security guard. Even then there are numerous instances depending on the situation where an officer who is undercover will not carry their weapon. I don't know about others here but IMO the best defense is clearly prevention.



http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2001/...eal010613.html

June 13, 2001

Crawford said his security plan is relatively simple, although it's difficult to imagine anyone wanting to challenge O'Neal.

"You don't need a lot, it's all preventive stuff," Crawford said. "The more people around, the greater the chances are of something happening.

"The whole objective is to stay away from trouble, see trouble before it happens. I know what I'm doing.

"We try to stay out of physical confrontations. Mike Tyson could have saved millions of dollars with this system - keep it simple.

"You have to have people around who have a security background."

"Uncle Jerome is the first to walk away. We don't want to put ourselves in that position."

that was insightful to you on your Philly Wilt knowledge
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Old 07-17-2013, 03:37 AM   #37
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

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Originally Posted by bmulls


In what Hollywood Die Hard fcking fantasy world do you live in that charging somebody who you KNOW has a gun is the smart thing to do?

Jesus christ.

Let's assume Zimmerman told Trayvon he had a gun and intended to kill him no matter what. We don't know that's what happened, but it's a possibility. I can easily see Trayvon saying, "I ain't doin nothin, cracka!" and Zimmerman not accepting his story.

1.) If he hasn't reached for it, bumrushing him before he gets to it will catch him off-guard and at least give you a chance to defend yourself. People with guns who may be hesitant to shoot you aren't expecting you to go after them at all.

2.) What other choice is there for you to defend your life? Running away gives them a target.

And, I'm partly speaking from Trayvon's mindstate here. We know he's probably not the most critical of thinkers, so if he feels threatened I could easily see him taking action as quickly as possible. He simply failed to disarm Zimmerman in that instance.
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:03 AM   #38
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

Self Defense is simple.
You are allowed to return with the same force.

If a man puts a gun to your head, You can shoot him hoever killing him without a justified threat would be manslaughter. So in a case like this, you are allowed to take necessary action to prevent injury to yourself e.g. disarm him or use necessary force (This does not mean, start killing him)
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Old 07-17-2013, 09:36 AM   #39
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic bird
Self Defense is simple.
You are allowed to return with the same force.

If a man puts a gun to your head, You can shoot him hoever killing him without a justified threat would be manslaughter. So in a case like this, you are allowed to take necessary action to prevent injury to yourself e.g. disarm him or use necessary force (This does not mean, start killing him)

Explain the case of Roderick Scott.

http://rochester.ynn.com/content/top...tt-not-guilty/

Basically Roderick catches white teenager breaking into cars. Holds him at gun point demanding he stop. white unarmed teen charges him. Roderick shoots and kills him. Jury acquits roderick because he shot the teen in self defense to avoid potential injury.

Avoid potential injury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
I think each situation has to be judged in itself. but I dont believe the you can say anything you want to somebody, and provoke them in any manner you please and then claim self defense if they punch you and you shoot them..

the whole confrontation needs to be considered, and not just the physical part.

people like to act like words dont matter, but they do indeed matter..

words are how we communicate, words can make people love you... words can also make people kill you..

what is said needs to be considered also when decided who is responsible for these incidents..

otherwise you will have people killing other people and claiming self defense in really ridiculous situations..

Let's say we adopted your standard.
1 letting it be decided on a case by case basis is inviting bias.

2. How do you prove what was said. The reason we go by physical damage is that is at least somewhat objective. How do you prove what was said?
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Old 07-17-2013, 10:16 AM   #40
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by HardwoodLegend
Let's assume Zimmerman told Trayvon he had a gun and intended to kill him no matter what. We don't know that's what happened, but it's a possibility. I can easily see Trayvon saying, "I ain't doin nothin, cracka!" and Zimmerman not accepting his story.

1.) If he hasn't reached for it, bumrushing him before he gets to it will catch him off-guard and at least give you a chance to defend yourself. People with guns who may be hesitant to shoot you aren't expecting you to go after them at all.

2.) What other choice is there for you to defend your life? Running away gives them a target.

And, I'm partly speaking from Trayvon's mindstate here. We know he's probably not the most critical of thinkers, so if he feels threatened I could easily see him taking action as quickly as possible. He simply failed to disarm Zimmerman in that instance.

Shooting somebody who is sprinting away would be insanely difficult. The best snipers on earth would have trouble hitting a sprinting target, and that is with a scoped rifle, knowing windage, distance and being trained to adjust for all of it. The only way some amateur with a handgun is going to hit you is pure dumb luck. You would be a million times better off running away from somebody with a gun than trying to charge them.
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Old 07-17-2013, 10:19 AM   #41
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic bird
Self Defense is simple.
You are allowed to return with the same force.

If a man puts a gun to your head, You can shoot him hoever killing him without a justified threat would be manslaughter. So in a case like this, you are allowed to take necessary action to prevent injury to yourself e.g. disarm him or use necessary force (This does not mean, start killing him)

So when a 110 lb. woman is being abducted or raped she can't pull out her concealed weapon and defend herself? She has to rape the guy back?

I realize this is an extreme example but the point is your idea is incredibly flawed.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:51 PM   #42
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

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How would you prove it though? and where is the line drawn? As immoral as i think racial profiling is, it is not illegal. Going up to someone and calling them a slur isn't illegal. If someone came up to me and called me a cracker and I assaulted them it would still be aggravated assault. People can say anything they want. In civilized society offensive words should never be an appropriate provocation for violence.

Given your idea wouldn't it be possible to go up to someone and assault them and later claim they provoked it with their words? If under the law we accept that offensive words can be used as a reason to explain assault (which is why it is inappropriate for them to use self defense), why wouldn't people just assault another person and claim that they said something and deserved it? Its impossible to prove either way and with the assumption of innocence they would get away.

The current self defense laws are overall the best they can be imo. I know people dont like hearing that, but If you just shot a guy you fought and claimed self defense it wouldnt work. thats not what happened. Honestly there wasnt even evidence a fight took place, just a one sided beating.

There are a number of ways in which you could prove your case that you didn't try to escalate the situation. Take Cordell Jude for example, the prick got out and shot a guy and claimed self defense. You mean to tell me his only option was to get out of the car and shoot an unarmed man? He claimed stand your ground and wasn't arrested despite parts of his story not adding up.

Or how about the guy that shot some kids because the music was too loud? He "claimed" he saw a gun in the car, when he had the option to just drive away. There was no indication that the kids accosted him or initiated a confrontation.

You keep bringing up Roderick, but for some reason you purposely leave out facts. Like the fact that he confronted 3 teenagers actually committing a crime. He could take 1 teenager one on one, but it's reasonable to assume that if he tried fist fighting all 3 he could be dead right now. That's a more reasonable self defense claim than these other ones.
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:21 PM   #43
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by MavsSuperFan


Let's say we adopted your standard.
1 letting it be decided on a case by case basis is inviting bias.

2. How do you prove what was said. The reason we go by physical damage is that is at least somewhat objective. How do you prove what was said?


If you consider the whole incident, there is usually some reasonable clues as to who is at fault.

In the Zimmerman case, you cant be sure of who said what when they meet face to face, but you can be sure that zimmerman followed Trayvon and was warned to stop.

I have been on juries before, and I know how narrow the jury instruction can be. Its the reason I dont blame the jurors for the verdict..

I think the scope needs to be wider, and juries need to have the room to actually judge the situation as a whole.. When a person claims self defense and says "this is what happened" then we have a baseline to judge from. Every part of a incident should be considered when deciding who is at fault
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:50 PM   #44
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

I'm all about the right to defend myself. Every human deserves that right.

Hypothetical, if some really big kid, future star athlete or some shit, was beating me up to the point where I might die or be permanently injured, best believe I'm not going to stand back and let him do that "because he's a kid". (If I started said fight, obviously that's not self defense)

MavsSuperFan, I think you're wrong about starting a verbal confrontation, then somebody else throwing the first blow, and you being exonerated. Obviously every case is different, but it doesn't work like that. Legally, even verbally provoking somebody into a fight is technically starting the fight, and most CHL owners know this.

For instance in Indiana law:

Quote:
A person who recklessly, knowingly or intentionally engages in conduct that is likely to provoke a reasonable man to commit battery commits provocation.

I'm quite certain Texas laws are the same.
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Old 07-17-2013, 04:40 PM   #45
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Default Re: Self-Defense Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic bird
Self Defense is simple.
You are allowed to return with the same force.

If a man puts a gun to your head, You can shoot him hoever killing him without a justified threat would be manslaughter. So in a case like this, you are allowed to take necessary action to prevent injury to yourself e.g. disarm him or use necessary force (This does not mean, start killing him)

so if you kill someone who had a gun pointed at your head, you think you should get manslaughter ? please tell me this is not what you mean lol
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