Islamic State discussion

[East_Stone_Ya]

I thought this terror group that is building caliphate stretching from Syria to Iraq deserves it's own thread.

What are its origins?
In 2006, al Qaeda in Iraq -- under the ruthless leadership of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- embarked on seemingly arbitrary and brutal treatment of civilians as it tried to ignite a sectarian war against the majority Shia community.
It came close to succeeding, especially after the bombing of the Al-Askariya Mosque, an important Shia shrine in Samarra, which sparked retaliatory attacks.
But the killing of al-Zarqawi by American forces, the vicious treatment of civilians and the emergence of the Sahwa (Awakening) Fronts under moderate Sunni tribal leaders nearly destroyed the group.
Nearly, but not quite.
When U.S. forces left Iraq, they took much of their intelligence-gathering expertise with them.
Iraqi officials began to speak of a "third generation" of al Qaeda in Iraq.
Two years ago, a former spokesman for the U.S. military in Iraq, Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Buchanan, warned that "if the Iraqi security forces are not able to put pressure on them, they could regenerate."
The capability of those Iraqi forces was fatally compromised by a lack of professional soldiers, the division of military units along sectarian lines and a lack of the equipment needed for fighting an insurgency, such as attack helicopters and reconnaissance capabilities.
The new al Qaeda was rebranded in 2006 as the Islamic State in Iraq (ISI). It would add "and Syria" to its name later.
The group exploited a growing perception among many Sunnis that they were being persecuted by the Shia-dominated government led by Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, starved of resources and excluded from a share of power.
The arrest of senior Sunni political figures and heavy-handed suppression of Sunni dissent were the best recruiting sergeants ISI could have. And it helped the new leader re-establish the group's influence.

[East_Stone_Ya]

What is ISIS trying to accomplish?

It wants to establish an Islamic caliphate, or state, stretching across the region.
ISIS has begun imposing Sharia law in the towns it controls. Boys and girls must be separated at school; women must wear the niqab or full veil in public. Sharia courts often dispense brutal justice, music is banned and the fast is enforced during Ramadan.
Sharia law covers both religious and non-religious aspects of life.

Where does the group's money come from?

In the beginning, al Baghdadi focused on secrecy -- with loosely connected cells making it more difficult to hunt down the leadership -- and on money.
Extortion, such as demanding money from truck drivers and threatening to blow up businesses, was one revenue stream; robbing banks and gold shops was another.
It seemed the group had become little more than gangsters, but the income would help finance a growing stream of suicide attacks and assassinations that would poison the political atmosphere.
It would also aid the recruitment of Sunni tribal fighters and finance spectacular prison raids that liberated hundreds of fighters, as well as attacks on police patrols and the assassination of officials.
Now, al Baghdadi has a new strategy for generating resources: large-scale attacks aimed at capturing and holding territory.
Ayham Kamel of the Eurasia Group, a U.S.-based consultancy, says that in the latest iteration of this strategy, ISIS will "use cash reserves from Mosul's banks, military equipment from seized military and police bases and the release of 2,500 fighters from local jails to bolster its military and financial capability."

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/12/wo...o-is-the-isis/

[East_Stone_Ya]

What's been its key to survival?

Al Baghdadi avoided al-Zarqawi's mistakes by avoiding the alienation of powerful tribal figures.
When it captured Falluja, west of Baghdad, in January, it worked with local tribal leaders rather than raise its black flag over the city.
One of the group's ideologues, Abu Mohammed al-Adnani, even admitted: "As for our mistakes, we do not deny them. Rather, we will continue to make mistakes as long as we are humans. God forbid that we commit mistakes deliberately."

How is it drawing support?

ISIS is, in essence, trying to capture and channel the resentment of the Sunni street. And in both Syria and Iraq, it is trying to win favor through dawa -- organizing social welfare programs and even recreational activities for children, distributing food and fuel to the needy, and setting up clinics.
Again, having the money matters. The price it demands is enforcement of the strict Sharia code.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/12/wo...o-is-the-isis/

[sweggeh]

Terrorists giving Islam a bad name

Hope they burn in hell

[Breezy]

War in Iraq: Another failed big government program.

[East_Stone_Ya]

Al-Qaeda spinoffs are gaining strength. The fanatical Islamic State of Iraq and Syria has conquered much of western Iraq. As we warned 10 years ago: If "Iraq becomes a failed state, it will go to the top of the list of places that are breeding grounds for attacks against Americans at home." That nightmare scenario may now be coming to pass.

Senior national security leaders are especially alarmed about the foreign fighters who have flooded into neighboring Syria. More than 1,000 hold European passports, which would enable many to enter the United States without a visa. Even worse, dozens of Americans have joined them. When these battle-hardened, radicalized fighters return to the U.S. and Europe, they will pose a serious threat.

http://www.thenorthwestern.com/story...isis/13015087/

[MMM]

Iraq has been such a failure but once America went in they should have had the conviction to stay until they had it right. I understand the concern about American lives but it seems like more American lives will be at risk in the long run.

[FatComputerNerd]

Vice has been working on a rather interesting documentary about them.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsCZzpmbEcs

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzCAPJDAnQA

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOaBNbdUbcA

Part 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGQwTOsh__0


What's going on in Iraq and Syria is pretty scary

[East_Stone_Ya]

Vice has been working on a rather interesting documentary about them.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsCZzpmbEcs

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzCAPJDAnQA

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOaBNbdUbcA

Part 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGQwTOsh__0


What's going on in Iraq and Syria is pretty scary

Thanks for the links, didn't know Vice was doing work on this....will definitely watch it later


Also if you are interested about the rebels in Syria then I recommend a documentary named ''The Return to Homs''

[ArbitraryWater]

Where are those Vids where they film their killings? (Recent threads)

[RidonKs]

ISIS is, in essence, trying to capture and channel the resentment of the Sunni street. And in both Syria and Iraq, it is trying to win favor through dawa -- organizing social welfare programs and even recreational activities for children, distributing food and fuel to the needy, and setting up clinics.

Ayham Kamel of the Eurasia Group, a U.S.-based consultancy, says that in the latest iteration of this strategy, ISIS will "use cash reserves from Mosul's banks, military equipment from seized military and police bases and the release of 2,500 fighters from local jails to bolster its military and financial capability."

key facts, thanks for posting them east stone ya

again, and i've said it before, if you're trying to figure out what course of action to take in iraq and syria, faced with a terrifying organization with a lot of popular support and a growing military capacity, you need to figure out why it has been so successful.

the social welfare programs are very important to note. it's the exact same reason the muslim brotherhood remained relevant in egypt for decades in the face of severe state repression.

but the other reason it's been successful is much more simple. the al-malaki government was a failure. it was not inclusive. it was harsh. it was propped up not by the population but by outside support and funding. and it was highly unpopular. the sectarian division tells part of that story but certainly not the whole tale. thousands of people were imprisoned in mosul, many of them ordinary political activists without a militant bone in their body. the collapse of the iraqi army is highly relevant. in fact its probably the most important and telling event there of the past six months.

these are important facts i hope people take the time to digest.

[RidonKs]

let me just add, this is all not subordinate to the fact but in spite of the violent jihadist theocratic nature of isis itself. it's a hideous organization that is guided by a depraved ideology. in other words, it's extreme.

this begs the question; why is northern syrians and iraqis supporting it? if it's because of a fervent belief in the doctrine itself, that's a very serious problem that might - MIGHT - justify the use of military force. but if it's for some other reason or a whole collection of reasons, including some mentioned in this thread, then THOSE are the issues that need to be seriously examined.

as it happens, serious examination has taken place though you rarely hear about it. there is a dynamic we've seen in the past few decades in the middle east where broad popular factions sympathize with islamic jihadists but disapprove of both their fundamentalism and their tactics. you see it with hamas and the palestinians, you see it in afghanistan from the 80s during the russian invasion all the way to the present with the mujhahadeen, you see it throughout north africa particular prior to the arab spring. and you can see it currently with isis.

people sympathize because its a nationalist resistance movement. and when western powers ignore these views and impose catastrophic foreign policy throughout the region, and then other regional powers invest the same way, you get social breakdown and upheaval and occasionally civil war.

[LJJ]

Important thing to note here is that like Hamas, like the Taliban, like essentially every terrorist organisation of the past 30 years, IS is an organisation of the young progressives in Islamic society. It's no coincidence each iteration of these Islamist organisations is bigger, more outrageous and more widely supported than before.

A lot of people made this mistake during the Arab spring. They think the young counter-culture in places like Syria, Egypt, Tunisia is exactly like counter-culture we experienced in the west in the 60s, 70s and 80s. A counter-culture can go both ways however, the young generation in the Islamic world want a more extreme interpretation of Islam.

That's why we see these arab spring movements turn out the way they have turned out. That's also why we see Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc adopt a more extreme interpretation of Islam with each new generation. To be an Islamist is the progressive stance in these countries, while the old conservatives are more liberal, more democratically inclined and more religiously open.

Islamic State is not something that is going away. It's simply the newest look at what that area of the world is headed too.

[East_Stone_Ya]

let me just add, this is all not subordinate to the fact but in spite of the violent jihadist theocratic nature of isis itself. it's a hideous organization that is guided by a depraved ideology. in other words, it's extreme.

this begs the question; why is northern syrians and iraqis supporting it? if it's because of a fervent belief in the doctrine itself, that's a very serious problem that might - MIGHT - justify the use of military force. but if it's for some other reason or a whole collection of reasons, including some mentioned in this thread, then THOSE are the issues that need to be seriously examined.

as it happens, serious examination has taken place though you rarely hear about it. there is a dynamic we've seen in the past few decades in the middle east where broad popular factions sympathize with islamic jihadists but disapprove of both their fundamentalism and their tactics. you see it with hamas and the palestinians, you see it in afghanistan from the 80s during the russian invasion all the way to the present with the mujhahadeen, you see it throughout north africa particular prior to the arab spring. and you can see it currently with isis.

people sympathize because its a nationalist resistance movement. and when western powers ignore these views and impose catastrophic foreign policy throughout the region, and then other regional powers invest the same way, you get social breakdown and upheaval and occasionally civil war.

I agree with your post.

I think that Maliki being shia and implementing more of a shia approach to the government policies helped alienate the sunni communities. So this would explain how mostly sunni areas were so quickly overtaken by IS.

[RidonKs]

i don't see your point ljj. islamicist groups may be advocating social measures in certain cases which are an improvement over the dictatorships and military juntas that have governed each of the countries you mentioned since the second world war. and obviously there is overlap between fundamentalists and progressives. but what's your evidence for assuming that were the country to fall into the hands of the young generation you're describing, it would be more repressive and violent than regimes that have dominated in the past... much of the time with western support?

i agree with the premise that not every counterculture is the same. but we need to look comparatively at history and popular polling and see how people actually feel. and then as citizens of countries with significant interests in the region, act accordingly.