tim duncans greatness vs the spurs system

[mehyaM24]

Nah, you added the old players first putting Finley/Horry under Duncan and then leaving them out under Kobe. I followed your criteria. You changed the criteria adding guys like Steve Smith under Duncan. I added guys like Ron Harper.

Final count for Lakers and kobe:

12 HOFers duing championship runs
16 HOFers total

lol

i have horry under kobe AND shaq in my op

we already boiled it down in the spurs favor, 10-9

let us proceed

[Artillery]

lol

i have horry under kobe AND shaq in my op

You originally didn't.

lwe already boiled it down in the spurs favor, 10-9

let us proceed

You changed the rules, I modified the list. Final tally:

who kobe and lakers won with:
GOAT coach - 11 rings
HOF shaq
HOF gasol
HOF artest
HOF horry
HOF glen rice
HOF odom
HOF bynum
HOF richmond
HOF fisher
HOF ron harper
HOF horace grant
HOF trevor ariza
HOF rick fox

13 HOFers total Kobe played with

GOAT help for Kobe

In addition, look at the HOFers Kobe couldn't win with:

Malone
Payton
Dwight
Nash

17 HOFers total for Kobe

boiled down:

13-10 in the Lakers favor

let us proceed

[mehyaM24]

You originally didn't.

what? my first post came before anyone here

You changed the rules, I modified the list

you only get one modifer. you modified it to 10

boiled down, spurs 10 - kobe 9

dat spurs franchise tho

[CoastalRyan]

dont agree with this, but even if this were the case

he'd have won with more HOFers in their prime than shaq, kobe, dirk and lebron (lebron won titles after wade exited his prime in 2011)

Your definition of "prime" and "HoF" drastically differs from everyone else. Certainly miles away from any hard truth are actual facts that could be referenced.

Robinson's decline began the year prior to his injury which led to the Duncan pick. Once healthy again he had one strong season prior to passing the torch and then for the next 3 years declined steadily in every statistical category sans FT%.

No where near his prime and the talent level of TD allowed him to really hang on as a compliment player and defensive presence longer than expected. Especially that last season where things took a big dive.

Obviously Manu and Parker are HoFers who played with TD in their prime but there isn't anyone else listed even close.

Finley, Kerr and Horry were are role players filling a niche and far from significant rotation players.

Bowen is a great mention but a specialist at best.

Leonard has great upside but the debate at this point is that he's either not reached his prime yet or already peaked. Certainly miles away from HoF consideration. We don't even know if he's going to be a perennial all star going forward.

...and I'm a huge Leonard fan.

If there's one thing the Spurs liked to do in the 2000's it was rounding out their roster with over the hill but proven vets.

With the exception of the big 3 everyone mentioned sans Leonard and Bowen were all on the tail end of their career.

I just don't see anything even remotely accurate being tossed around here. This thread is 90% speculation and 10% projection and wishful trolling.

[mehyaM24]

@coastalryan - a good post to be sure. repped - but robinson (99), manu and parker were all in their primes

for comparisons sake, shaq won with wade and kobe in their prime

kobe won with shaq and pau

lebron won with bosh

its not a knock on duncan, who's a top 10 player of all time. i just dont think hes as good as the guys mentioned in my op (dirk,lebron,shaq,kobe etc).

i also vehemently disagree your take on leonard. he will be a multiple all-star/HOF candidate

[Anaximandro1]

You must have started watching basketball very recently, during Duncan prime, the spurs system was "throw it to Tim Duncan"

Yeah.

prime Duncan was the system


Duncan Closing out the Lakers (33 points, 1999 WCSF Game 4)

Duncan 46 pts 14 rebs vs Jazz 2000

Shaq vs Duncan (2003 WCSF Game 6, 37 points/16 rebounds)

Duncan Game 1 2003 Nba Finals 32/20/7/6/3

Tim Duncan - 41 points vs Dallas Mavericks Full Highlights (2006 WCSF GM7)

Duncan (2007 WCSF Game 3, 33 pts, 19 rb)


Robinson, Parker and Ginobili are Hall of Famers, but the undeniable fact is that prime Duncan won 4 titles without an All NBA teammate because their primes didn't quite coincide.




Bill Simmons (May 11, 2007): Duncan is wildly underrated

Assuming the Spurs win the 2007 title and Duncan captures his fourth Finals MVP award (both decent bets), his first professional decade will have concluded with four rings, two regular-season MVP awards and nine first-team All-NBA nods.

His best teammates have been David Robinson (who turned 33 in Duncan's rookie year), Manu Ginobili (never a top-15 player) and Tony Parker (ditto).

In fact, Duncan has never played for a dominant team; the Spurs have never had quite enough talent to roll through the league.

Trapped at the top of the standings, they've been forced to rely on others' failed lottery picks, foreign rookies, journeymen and head cases with baggage.

Zoom through San Antonio's past 10 rosters on basketball-reference.com some time.

You'll be shocked. Tim Duncan has never played on a great basketball team.

Not once.

No one has done more with less than Tim Duncan. No one. The Spurs' record without Duncan,Robinson and Ginobili speaks volumes.




The reason is very simple : prime Duncan does everything well ... he's got pretty much the whole package : elite low-post scorer, great facilitator, phenomenal offensive rebounder, elite defensive rebounder, one of the best rim protectors and defensive anchors,great teammate who takes all the blame on himself...




Duncan had to do everything in the early 2000s ... one man army. The Spurs reached the WCF in 2001, the WCSF in 2002 and won the championship in 2003.






It's hard to envision Shaq winning with Speedy Claxton / Stephen Jax playing PG / SG at crunch time.

Shaq was a one dimensional player ... Shaq's legacy should be recognized as the product of Phil Jackson's triangle offense.

[gts]

Hall of Fame is being tossed around WAAAAY too liberally here..

But if thats what it takes to push and agenda have it

[mehyaM24]

Hall of Fame is being tossed around WAAAAY too liberally here..

But if thats what it takes to push and agenda have it

gts, you're one of the few GOOD laker posters here

who in your estimation are shoe-in HOFers? guys in their prime that duncan, kobe and shaq won with.

[T_L_P]

@coastalryan - a good post to be sure. repped - but robinson (99), manu and parker were all in their primes

for comparisons sake, shaq won with wade and kobe in their prime

kobe won with shaq and pau

lebron won with bosh

its not a knock on duncan, who's a top 10 player of all time. i just dont think hes as good as the guys mentioned in my op (dirk,lebron,shaq,kobe etc).

i also vehemently disagree your take on leonard. he will be a multiple all-star/HOF candidate

Kobe in 00: 21/5/4
Kobe in 01: 29/7/6
Kobe in 02: 27/6/5

Wade in 06: 28/6/6

Robinson in 99: 16/10/3
Robinson in 03: 8/6/1

Parker in 03: 15/3/4
Parker in 05: 17/3/4
Parker in 07: 21/3/6

Manu in 03: 9/4/3
Manu in 05: 21/6/4
Manu in 07: 17/6/4

You see the differences there? Prime Parker/Manu and slightly past-his-prime Robinson simply cannot compare to prime Wade or Kobe. But you're obviously incapable of seeing it.

Also, here's Terry's stats as a Maverick: 17/3/4
And here's Horry as a Spur: 5/4/1

But of course you only mentioned the Hall of Famer, a guy who's unlikely to make it anyway? Like I said, your agenda is weak: absolutely nobody buys what you say.

[Artillery]

Lebron
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

Best players in the post-Jordan era and TWO of them played on the same team. Imagine if Lebron or Duncan got to play with a top ten all-time great in his prime.

[mehyaM24]

Kobe in 00: 21/5/4
Kobe in 01: 29/7/6
Kobe in 02: 27/6/5

Wade in 06: 28/6/6

Robinson in 99: 16/10/3
Robinson in 03: 8/6/1

Parker in 03: 15/3/4
Parker in 05: 17/3/4
Parker in 07: 21/3/6

Manu in 03: 9/4/3
Manu in 05: 21/6/4
Manu in 07: 17/6/4

manu and parker in 05 > kobe in 00
manu and parker in 05 > kobe in 01
manu and parker in 05 > kobe in 02
manu and parker in 07 > kobe in 00
manu and parker in 07 > kobe in 01
manu and parker in 07 > kobe in 02

manu and parker in 05 > wade in 06
manu and parker in 07 > wade in 06

nobody but duncan had the fortune (nobody on this list i mentioned in the op) of playing with 2 HOFers in their prime

i've also contended that manu/parker were the spurs' leaders/best players from 07-on.

keep up people

[mehyaM24]

Lebron
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

Best players in the post-Jordan era and TWO of them played on the same team. Imagine if Lebron or Duncan got to play with a top ten all-time great in his prime.

im willing to put duncan ahead of kobe,

but shaq and lebron are in a class of their own

[T_L_P]

Lebron
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

Best players in the post-Jordan era and TWO of them played on the same team. Imagine if Lebron or Duncan got to play with a top ten all-time great in his prime.

The OP is just a huge idiot -- or troll.

He's basically comparing prime Bowen to peak Wade, because to him they are both simply Hall of Famers in their prime.

Wade scored three times as many points as Shaq in the 06 Finals. Shaq scored three times as many as Kobe in 00. When did Duncan ever get to play with someone significantly better than him? 17/3/6 Tony Parker?

[CoastalRyan]

@coastalryan - a good post to be sure. repped - but robinson (99), manu and parker were all in their primes

for comparisons sake, shaq won with wade and kobe in their prime

kobe won with shaq and pau

lebron won with bosh

its not a knock on duncan, who's a top 10 player of all time. i just dont think hes as good as the guys mentioned in my op (dirk,lebron,shaq,kobe etc).

i also vehemently disagree your take on leonard. he will be a multiple all-star/HOF candidate

What exactly is it that gives you the impression that Robinson was in his prime?

If not for TD he probably would have been out of the league within 2 years of that injury season?

With the exception of courtesy AS selections he was no better than 2nd team honors after 98.

He was clearly on the end of his career. Prior to injury he averaged 37 minutes per game. His last 5 years he averaged below 30 minutes per game.

His prime was clearly over TD's rookie year.

You can disagree with me all you want but the Leonard talk is pure speculation. He just finished his 3rd season with 13ppg and 6rpg. He's a career 11ppg and 6rpg. Hardly HoF numbers. He has shown moments of greatness and the ability to work unselfishly in a good system. I'll give him that.

Hopefully the best of Kawhi has yet to come but again that "prime" will be after TD is retired.

[CoastalRyan]

Kobe in 00: 21/5/4
Kobe in 01: 29/7/6
Kobe in 02: 27/6/5

Wade in 06: 28/6/6

Robinson in 99: 16/10/3
Robinson in 03: 8/6/1

Parker in 03: 15/3/4
Parker in 05: 17/3/4
Parker in 07: 21/3/6

Manu in 03: 9/4/3
Manu in 05: 21/6/4
Manu in 07: 17/6/4

You see the differences there? Prime Parker/Manu and slightly past-his-prime Robinson simply cannot compare to prime Wade or Kobe. But you're obviously incapable of seeing it.

Also, here's Terry's stats as a Maverick: 17/3/4
And here's Horry as a Spur: 5/4/1

But of course you only mentioned the Hall of Famer, a guy who's unlikely to make it anyway? Like I said, your agenda is weak: absolutely nobody buys what you say.

This is as telling as it gets.