Dirk is better than KG.

[DMAVS41]

I don't know about Duncan, since his team already in the second round with a 2-0 series lead, as well. However, he would have better weapons, if Cassell is healthy, so I see what your saying. Duncan was also injured that year, I believe, so it probably comes down to his healthy too. I can see Hakeem changing the series a lot more and outplaying Shaq.



Though you didn't ask me, it's probably Hakeem's Rockets in 94 and Duncan's Spurs in 03.

Rick Barry in 75 would also be in the conversation too, but you did say last 30 years... I can see if someone wanted to say the Pistons in 04 and Heat in 06, but I thought the all-around depth was there.

Exactly. So if so few superstars won with equal to or less help and coaching...without even mentioning the extremely tough road to the title historically.

Then what do all these so called "deficiencies" really add up to? In my mind they keep Dirk away from being in the ultra elite category of players like Duncan, Bird, and Hakeem...but KG just doesn't belong in that category imo.

[SCdac]

And you still can't grasp the point. So here it is again. If Dirk can be the clear cut best player and most valuable player...and play by far the most minutes (7 more than anyone else per game)...on a team that, according to you, plays the best defense ever...and wins the title going through all the best players and best teams...then maybe his so called "deficiencies" don't impact things as much as you claim...

You're (conveniently) forgetting Jason Kidd... the guy who lead the Mavs in steals, assists, and three's.

[DMAVS41]

You're (conveniently) forgetting Jason Kidd... the guy who lead the Mavs in steals, assists, and three's.

My fault. 4 more than anyone else.

[Ballin416]

Haven't read the thread but preference in all time rankings must consider two way play and in that sense, KG is heaps and bounds above Dirk.

[rmt]

Haven't read the thread but preference in all time rankings must consider two way play and in that sense, KG is heaps and bounds above Dirk.

I disagree. All-time rankings place more emphasis on winning than on who is the "better (2-way) player" or else Bill Russell would be considered a lot lower than he is (he'd be like the opposite of Dirk). Also, Lebron would be considered top 10 and he isn't because he hasn't won enough yet.

Another example is Hakeem/Kobe. IMO, Hakeem is the better player - more impact and the one I would choose to start a franchise with but I consider Kobe #9 ahead of Hakeem #10 just because of the sheer weight of his career. Hakeem with the higher peak - Kobe with longevity. Skill-wise they're about even for their respective positions.

[SCdac]

I hate how in threads like these both players get talked down to an exaggerated degree. Both are all-time greats. Neither player is flawless that's for sure. Dirk's regular season win-% is like .66+ which is awesome but that drops in the playoffs to like .46+. I'm sure KG's drops as well, because both players have been a part of numerous first and second round exits.

[veilside23]

simple if dirk is so good in scoring how come he only has 3 more points than kg all through their career.. considering that garnett has been the "3rd option" for the celtics since 08 dirk should have been like 5 pts or more ...

and garnett had 2 or 3 more assists a steal or 2 per game ... 3 to 5 more rebounds and a block or 2 per game

how can people not count that greatness ???

if we will go by scoring then is it safe to say that melo >> dirk ?

since melo plays 3 or 4 as well...

see the logic ? sometimes people need to learn and really understand basketball...

[Ballin416]

I disagree. All-time rankings place more emphasis on winning than on who is the "better (2-way) player" or else Bill Russell would be considered a lot lower than he is (he'd be like the opposite of Dirk). Also, Lebron would be considered top 10 and he isn't because he hasn't won enough yet.

Another example is Hakeem/Kobe. IMO, Hakeem is the better player - more impact and the one I would choose to start a franchise with but I consider Kobe #9 ahead of Hakeem #10 just because of the sheer weight of his career. Hakeem with the higher peak - Kobe with longevity. Skill-wise they're about even for their respective positions.

I don't disagree with you that all time rankings place a great emphasis on winning. I'm just saying that you must also consider the inherent skills and abilities of these players on both ends of the court.

There's a general stigma for players who have never won and it greatly affects their rank but had they won even one ring, some would jump a tier in the hierarchy of all time greats (Malone Barkley). But because they never won, we don't view them as the absolute elite even if they reach an elite benchmark (Malone 2nd all time in points).

As for my first post, we know Dirk and KG have won a championship so I feel it fair to place more emphasis on their collective skillsets. KG wins it by a mile.

[DMAVS41]

I don't disagree with you that all time rankings place a great emphasis on winning. I'm just saying that you must also consider the inherent skills and abilities of these players on both ends of the court.

There's a general stigma for players who have never won and it greatly affects their rank but had they won even one ring, some would jump a tier in the hierarchy of all time greats (Malone Barkley). But because they never won, we don't view them as the absolute elite even if they reach an elite benchmark (Malone 2nd all time in points).

As for my first post, we know Dirk and KG have won a championship so I feel it fair to place more emphasis on their collective skillsets. KG wins it by a mile.

The bold is the exact problem...I suggest anyone that actually thinks that KG is better than Dirk "by a mile" needs to go back and come up with a new way to analyze players. Because your conclusion is way off...

[Pointguard]

No. I said any time a huge underdog team wins...you can call it a fluke if you want. I think the Mavs won because they all had ice water in their veins late in close games. Of course everything and everyone goes into a championship. You could credit Trevor Ariza with the 09 Lakers title if you want to look at things the way you do. Without him they don't win.

So I don't get the point. The Mavs won tight game after tight game the entire playoffs...and I'd credit Dirk the most for that by far.

And you still can't grasp the point. So here it is again. If Dirk can be the clear cut best player and most valuable player...and play by far the most minutes (7 more than anyone else per game)...on a team that, according to you, plays the best defense ever...and wins the title going through all the best players and best teams...then maybe his so called "deficiencies" don't impact things as much as you claim...

You see?

First time I heard the minutes argument. Dirk played 3.5 minutes more than J Kidd's very respectable 37.5 and who guarded Kobe, Wade and Westbrook while leading his team in 3pts, assist and steals. Please name me a player that guarded more explosive guards than that in the history of the playoffs? and still had to be the shooter, distributer, and still get steals. In the last three games - all Dalas wins, Dirk was shooting 38% from the field and wasn't tearing up the boards or guarding Lebron. Terry took up the slack and made more FG's than Dirk and only averaged 4 less ppg! He shot like 20 percentage points higher than Dirk as well in the last three games.
While talking about minutes how about the over and under for the last three games. When Kidd was on the floor he was the difference maker.

In the final three wins.
Game 4 Kidd +12, Dirk +7
Chandler the big minute getter in this game is +7 and gathers 16 rebounds. Dirk shoots 6 for 19 (316%), has 11 rebounds and 3 turnovers. Shawn Marion is 7 for 12 Jason Terry is 6 for 15. Team effort for this close win. Chandler's rebounding, Kidd's defense, Marion's hot streak and Lebron being 3 for 11 are all integral to winning the game. Dirk's clutch shooting is key at the end.

Game 5 Dirk +14, Kidd +13
Dirk shoots 9 for 18 for 29 points, Terry 8 for 12 with 21 points, Kidd has three steals and shoots 4 for 6, Lebron 17 points and Wade 6 for 12 are both held in check. Not really a close game. But Dirk's 29 points standout

Game 6Clinch game
Dirk was -4 in the last game Kidd +18 a 22 point differential when Kidd is on the floor.

Dirk shoots 9 for 27 (33%) for 21 points. 11 rebounds tho.
Jason Terry 11 for 16 for (68%) for 27 points
Team is hot from 3 point land except Dirk who keeps shooting 1 for 7. Wade shoots 6 for 16. Barrera penetrates a lot. Kidd 8 assist. Game was decided in third quarter.

Terry was definitely Ice Water. Kidd was stopping the poster boys for Ice Water in Wade and Kobe. As luck would have it Lebron acted like he came out of Ice Water.

This is not a story of a guy carrying bums at all. Dirk shot bad in the last three games. Chandler, Terry, Marion and Kidd were all had big key moments. Barrea's penetrating was big, as was Stevenson's defense. And Dirk's game had dipped quite a bit in two of the last three wins. Terry was Ice Water and shot significantly better than Dirk did in two of the wins (33% to 50%) and the scoring per minute is like only like 3 points per game differential. Kidd was key in every way except scoring.

Dirk definitely wasn't dominant in two the three last wins. He was their best player, yeah. But he wasn't some giant carrying ants. No way.

[rmt]

I don't disagree with you that all time rankings place a great emphasis on winning. I'm just saying that you must also consider the inherent skills and abilities of these players on both ends of the court.

There's a general stigma for players who have never won and it greatly affects their rank but had they won even one ring, some would jump a tier in the hierarchy of all time greats (Malone Barkley). But because they never won, we don't view them as the absolute elite even if they reach an elite benchmark (Malone 2nd all time in points).

As for my first post, we know Dirk and KG have won a championship so I feel it fair to place more emphasis on their collective skillsets. KG wins it by a mile.

The absolute elite should include winning. How can one be considered top 10 GOAT without winning when winning is the point of the game?

"By a mile" is an exaggeration - it's close. Dirk has gotten his team to the Finals twice. Admittedly, Mavs got screwed by the refs vs MIA, but I consider that payback for the refs screwing SAS in the WCSF. Each has 1 MVP with Dirk having a FMVP. Their careers are on the same level. Now if KG had left MIN earlier, maybe things would have been different, but it was his choice.

[DMAVS41]

First time I heard the minutes argument. Dirk played 3.5 minutes more than J Kidd's very respectable 37.5 and who guarded Kobe, Wade and Westbrook while leading his team in 3pts, assist and steals. Please name me a player that guarded more explosive guards than that in the history of the playoffs? and still had to be the shooter, distributer, and still get steals. In the last three games - all Dalas wins, Dirk was shooting 38% from the field and wasn't tearing up the boards or guarding Lebron. Terry took up the slack and made more FG's than Dirk and only averaged 4 less ppg! He shot like 20 percentage points higher than Dirk as well in the last three games.
While talking about minutes how about the over and under for the last three games. When Kidd was on the floor he was the difference maker.

In the final three wins.
Game 4 Kidd +12, Dirk +7
Chandler the big minute getter in this game is +7 and gathers 16 rebounds. Dirk shoots 6 for 19 (316%), has 11 rebounds and 3 turnovers. Shawn Marion is 7 for 12 Jason Terry is 6 for 15. Team effort for this close win. Chandler's rebounding, Kidd's defense, Marion's hot streak and Lebron being 3 for 11 are all integral to winning the game. Dirk's clutch shooting is key at the end.

Game 5 Dirk +14, Kidd +13
Dirk shoots 9 for 18 for 29 points, Terry 8 for 12 with 21 points, Kidd has three steals and shoots 4 for 6, Lebron 17 points and Wade 6 for 12 are both held in check. Not really a close game. But Dirk's 29 points standout

Game 6Clinch game
Dirk was -4 in the last game Kidd +18 a 22 point differential when Kidd is on the floor.

Dirk shoots 9 for 27 (33%) for 21 points. 11 rebounds tho.
Jason Terry 11 for 16 for (68%) for 27 points
Team is hot from 3 point land except Dirk who keeps shooting 1 for 7. Wade shoots 6 for 16. Barrera penetrates a lot. Kidd 8 assist. Game was decided in third quarter.

Terry was definitely Ice Water. Kidd was stopping the poster boys for Ice Water in Wade and Kobe. As luck would have it Lebron acted like he came out of Ice Water.

This is not a story of a guy carrying bums at all. Dirk shot bad in the last three games. Chandler, Terry, Marion and Kidd were all had big key moments. Barrea's penetrating was big, as was Stevenson's defense. And Dirk's game had dipped quite a bit in two of the last three wins. Terry was Ice Water and shot significantly better than Dirk did in two of the wins (33% to 50%) and the scoring per minute is like only like 3 points per game differential. Kidd was key in every way except scoring.

Dirk definitely wasn't dominant in two the three last wins. He was their best player, yeah. But he wasn't some giant carrying ants. No way.

You are arguing with a ghost. Nobody said Dirk won alone. I simply asked how a team led by Dirk as by far the best player (not even remotely close) with far less than average championship help in terms of players and coaching...won the title.

I asked and you give me an answer that would be true for every single player that won ever. Nobody won alone. When Duncan won in 03...his help actually did help him. When Hakeem won in 94...you could point to so many examples of his help coming through.

So I will ask again and hopefully you will finally answer. Which superstars won titles with less help than Dirk in the last 30 years. Please answer.

[Ballin416]

The bold is the exact problem...I suggest anyone that actually thinks that KG is better than Dirk "by a mile" needs to go back and come up with a new way to analyze players. Because your conclusion is way off...

I like Dirk's game as much as anyone and am happy he got a ring to call his own. He will go down as the best European to ever play.

But in comparison to KG who does everything on the court at an elite level while only averaging a few points less for his career with the ladder part of it focused enitirely on the defensive end, Dirk holds no argument. KG will go down as top20 while Dirk may float around the 30-40.

This won't even be a discussion when they retire as the only comparison would be KG and Duncan with Dirk always being in the next tier.

[miles berg]

Dirk is on a tier above kg. that's not a knock on KG at all.

[DMAVS41]

I like Dirk's game as much as anyone and am happy he got a ring to call his own. He will go down as the best European to ever play.

But in comparison to KG who does everything on the court at an elite level while only averaging a few points less for his career with the ladder part of it focused enitirely on the defensive end, Dirk holds no argument. KG will go down as top20 while Dirk may float around the 30-40.

This won't even be a discussion as the only comparison would be KG and Duncan with Dirk always being in the next tier.

Yep.

I guess these guys are just huge Dirk homers....ROFL

http://nbalegacy.blogspot.com/2012/0...june-2012.html

But yea...it's just such a crazy notion to think Dirk and KG are on the same tier and a legit debate...