Let's compare MJ and Lebron's early supporting casts

[3ball]

.
If Lebron had today's Sixers cast and played in a tough conference like the West, he would be in the same situation young Jordan was in (no talent supporting cast in a tough conference)..

But instead, Lebron's early casts had a 2-time all-star, a 15 ppg all-defensive wing, and played in a WEAK conference, so his path was far easier
.

[BigKAT]

.
Lebron's 2nd option was a top 3 player at his position in the conference (a 2-time all-star center).

Lebron's 3rd option was 1st team all-defense and the NBA steals leader in the season before joining Lebron, and averaged 15 ppg alongside Lebron

Jordan's 2nd and 3rd options were nowhere NEAR a top 3 player at their position, or a 15 ppg wing who was all-nba defense

Instead, Jordan's supporting cast was like the current Sixers or Nets, who have no all-stars or all-nba defenders, unlike Lebron's early Cavs.

I dunno man.
Dennis Rodman was a BEAST.
One of the best rebounders of all time.

But even if you're only talking early supporting cast,

I'd rather have Pippen over ilgauskas

[SouBeachTalents]

[3ball]

Dennis Rodman was a BEAST.
One of the best rebounders of all time.

You're mistaken - Rodman was 34 years old when he joined the Bulls and his all-star days were long gone, nor was he all-defense anymore!!

You forget that Rodman didn't make any all-defensive teams in 1997 or 1998 - he averaged 4/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs and didn't even start in 1998 playoffs!!

His last decent year was 1996... But by 1997 and 1998, he was the same washed up garbage that he was for the 1999 Lakers, but no one noticed because "da Bulls" were 3-peating.
.

[BigKAT]

You're mistaken - Rodman was 34 years old when he joined the Bulls and his all-star days were long gone.. You forget that Rodman didn't make any all-defensive teams in 1997 or 1998 - he averaged 4/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs and didn't even start in 1998 playoffs!!

His last good year was 1996 when he was all-defense... But by 1997 and 1998, he was the same washed up garbage that he was for the 1999 Lakers, but no one noticed because "da Bulls" were 3-peating.



Pippen didn't join the Bulls until 1988, when he came off the bench and averaged 7 ppg.

In 1989, he averaged 14/6 and was nowhere NEAR being a top 3 player at his position like Illgauskas, who was an all-star that averaged 17/9 and 2.2 blocks.. 2nd year Pippen was nowhere near all-star Illgauskas, so don't be dumb.

You could say the same on Kevin love then.
Instead of comparing him to his 26/12 season when talking supporting casts,
You could consider him the 15/10 guy he is now.

But I didn't realize Rodman didn't even start. That's news to me.

[Hey Yo]

"Pippen shot better tonight (8 for 16) and scored 20 points. More important, he limited Magic Johnson to 4-for-13 shooting from the field and 14 points over all.

Pippen, who was matched against James Worthy at the start of the game, switched to Johnson with 4 minutes 5 seconds remaining in the first quarter after Jordan had picked up his second foul.

"Pippen did a great job on me," Johnson said. "Once Michael got into early foul trouble, you had to expect they would make that switch.

"They were trying wear me out or take the ball out of my hands, take your pick. Scottie is more physical than Michael so the matchup was a little different." Full-Court Pressure

Pippen said, "I was trying to defend Magic full court so he could not pick apart of our offense.

With Jordan free of the burden of trying to guard Johnson, he scored 23 of his 33 points in the second half, including 14 in the final quarter to send the Chicago Stadium crowd of 18,676 into a frenzy.

"If I had a vote in that first championship for MVP it would have been Scottie. He brought his whole game and everyone could see. The way he played Magic and made him turn and turn and turn and made him work like that was the difference, especially after we lost the first game."

--Horace Grant

"Michael returned from the 1992 Olympic games raving about Scottie's performance. Before the summer, Michael had regarded Pippen as the most talented member of his supporting cast. But after watching him outplay Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler and other future Hall of Famers in Barcelona, Michael realized that Scottie was the best all-around player on what many consider the best basketball team ever assembled. Scottie, Michael had to admit, had even outshone him in several of the games."

--Phil Jackson

[3ball]

You could say the same on Kevin love then.

Love is 27 years old and in his uber-prime - he's the same player today that he was in 2014, when he was all-nba.. The Cavs system simply reduced him to a lesser role.

Otoh, Rodman was 34 years old when he joined the Bulls and on the fast decline - his last all-star game was 1992, so that means he was neither an all-star nor an all-nba defender in 1997 and 1998.

Overall, he averaged 4/8 in 1997 playoffs and didn't even start in 1998 playoffs - that's nowhere near a "beast" like you erroneously stated

[3ball]

I'd rather have Pippen over ilgauskas

Pippen didn't join the Bulls until 1988, when he came off the bench and averaged 7 ppg.

In 1989, he averaged 14/6 and was nowhere NEAR being a top 3 player at his position like Illgauskas, who was an all-star that averaged 17/9 and 2.2 blocks..

Relative to their competition, 2nd year Pippen was nowhere near all-star Illgauskas - it isn't remotely debateable.

[BigKAT]

Love is 27 years old and in his uber-prime - he's the same player today that he was in 2014, when he was all-nba.. The Cavs system simply reduced him to a lesser role.

Otoh, Rodman was 34 years old when he joined the Bulls and on the fast decline - his last all-star game was 1992, so that means he was neither an all-star nor an all-nba defender in 1997 and 1998.

Overall, he averaged 4/8 in 1997 playoffs and didn't even start in 1998 playoffs - that's nowhere near a "beast" like you erroneously stated

The guy averaged 15-16 rebounds in 96-98.
And about 11+ in the playoffs. excluding 97.

I didn't see his defense first hand, but a 15 RPG changes the game from side to side. Especially on the offensive end. Anyone who can nab 15+ rebounds for three seasons I consider a Beast. It's not all about offense. Especially when you're the 3rd option on a team with the greatest scorer on earth.

[Hey Yo]

"It's like Scottie Pippen--when you played the Bulls, you were praying that, 'I hope he guards the other guy tonight.' Because Pippen was one of those guys that could guard the 1, 2 or 3. And you were hoping, 'Okay, I hope he guards the other guy.' I mean how rare is it that you want Michael to guard you?"

--Doc Rivers

[3ball]

With Jordan free of the burden of trying to guard Johnson

[color="navy"]DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENTS BY QUARTER, 1991 FINALS:[/color]

[color="darkred"]Pippen guarded Magic for:[/color]

GAME 1: none
GAME 2: 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters
GAME 3: 2nd and 3rd quarters
GAME 4: the last 4 minutes of 4th quarter
GAME 5: none


[color="darkred"]Here's all 5 games in their entirety:[/color]

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxxGOqpDLw
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO2ZRhkuVKk
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueGQChyFuU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfjVFGzAbXw
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwqK9B5E2SM

[COLOR="Navy"]Overall, MJ guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%), compared to only 6 of 20 for Pippen (30%) [/COLOR].

[3ball]

The guy averaged 15-16 rebounds in 96-98.
And about 11+ in the playoffs. excluding 97.

I didn't see his defense first hand, but a 15 RPG changes the game from side to side. Especially on the offensive end. Anyone who can nab 15+ rebounds for three seasons I consider a Beast. It's not all about offense. Especially when you're the 3rd option on a team with the greatest scorer on earth.

4/8 for ENTIRE 1997 playoffs

4/8 for ENTIRE 1998 Finals

wasn't even a starter for 1998 playoffs

No all-defensive teams in 1997 and 1998.

No all-star teams since 1992



NOT A BEAST LIKE YOU SAID - Jordan had to win 2 rings with his PF averaging 8 rebounds

[Hey Yo]

Facts below:

"Pippen did a great job on me," Johnson said. "Once Michael got into early foul trouble, you had to expect they would make that switch.

"They were trying wear me out or take the ball out of my hands, take your pick. Scottie is more physical than Michael so the matchup was a little different." Full-Court Pressure

Pippen said, "I was trying to defend Magic full court so he could not pick apart of our offense.

With Jordan free of the burden of trying to guard Johnson, he scored 23 of his 33 points in the second half, including 14 in the final quarter to send the Chicago Stadium crowd of 18,676 into a frenzy.

"If I had a vote in that first championship for MVP it would have been Scottie. He brought his whole game and everyone could see. The way he played Magic and made him turn and turn and turn and made him work like that was the difference, especially after we lost the first game."

--Horace Grant

No need for Grant to lie......you OTOH though

[3ball]

"They were trying wear me out or take the ball out of my hands, [COLOR="Red"]take your pick[/COLOR]. Scottie is more physical than Michael so the matchup was a little different." Full-Court Pressure

[color="navy"]DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENTS BY QUARTER, 1991 FINALS:[/color]

[color="darkred"]Pippen guarded Magic for:[/color]

GAME 1: none
GAME 2: 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters
GAME 3: 2nd and 3rd quarters
GAME 4: the last 4 minutes of 4th quarter
GAME 5: none


[color="darkred"]Here's all 5 games in their entirety:[/color]

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxxGOqpDLw
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO2ZRhkuVKk
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueGQChyFuU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfjVFGzAbXw
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwqK9B5E2SM

[COLOR="Navy"]Overall, MJ guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%), compared to only 6 of 20 for Pippen (30%) [/COLOR].

[BigKAT]

4/8 for ENTIRE 1997 playoffs

4/8 for ENTIRE 1998 Finals

wasn't even a starter for 1998 playoffs

No all-defensive teams in 1997 and 1998.

No all-star teams since 1992



NOT A BEAST LIKE YOU SAID - Jordan had to win 2 rings with his PF averaging 8 rebounds

Started 9 games on the 1998 playoffs from what I see here.
And had 34 MPG. Dude.

How is that different from Kevin love on 2016?
He didn't start some of the games and was awful most of the time.

I'm not discrediting Jordan,
I'm just saying he didn't play with a bunch of scrubs.
That was a great team. A team that won 55 games without him man.
Jordan's the goat but stop trying to make it look like he won with the freaking sixers.