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Old 06-29-2007, 11:55 PM   #61
Rockets(T-mac)
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammdogg
to be honest i'd say Kobe. He has more talent and a more titles on that list than anyone on that list except Duncan, and I dont think Duncan is better than Kobe.
Great argument you think that Kobe is better than Duncan so its true.
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Old 06-30-2007, 12:42 AM   #62
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

I agree with GeeWiz. Oscar's being overrated. Sure, he was versatile. He could score, rebound, pass, and defend. Okay, so he averaged a triple double for the first five years of his career. Everyone knows that. What people don't know, however, is that during his ten years in Cincinnati his team barely posted a winning percentage above .500. The guy didn't win anything until he teamed up with Kareem, who was far more vital to the Bucks championship.

Who would actually start a team with this guy over the likes of Olajuwon and Duncan? We're talking about two defensive anchors that singlehandedly forced teams into taking lower percentage shots, and who both could score at will in the paint, regardless of what the other team through at them. Two guys that were actually the centerpieces on championship teams. It's like GeeWiz said, interior players are just better than perimeter players.
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Old 06-30-2007, 12:51 AM   #63
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Originally Posted by The Answer
I agree with GeeWiz. Oscar's being overrated. Sure, he was versatile. He could score, rebound, pass, and defend. Okay, so he averaged a triple double for the first five years of his career. Everyone knows that. What people don't know, however, is that during his ten years in Cincinnati his team barely posted a winning percentage above .500. The guy didn't win anything until he teamed up with Kareem, who was far more vital to the Bucks championship.

Who would actually start a team with this guy over the likes of Olajuwon and Duncan? We're talking about two defensive anchors that singlehandedly forced teams into taking lower percentage shots, and who both could score at will in the paint, regardless of what the other team through at them. Two guys that were actually the centerpieces on championship teams. It's like GeeWiz said, interior players are just better than perimeter players.
Thats very true I think that I am leaning more towards Hakeem now.
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Old 06-30-2007, 01:02 AM   #64
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Thats very true I think that I am leaning more towards Hakeem now.

Edit your original post then.
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Old 06-30-2007, 01:04 AM   #65
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Answer
I agree with GeeWiz. Oscar's being overrated. Sure, he was versatile. He could score, rebound, pass, and defend. Okay, so he averaged a triple double for the first five years of his career. Everyone knows that. What people don't know, however, is that during his ten years in Cincinnati his team barely posted a winning percentage above .500. The guy didn't win anything until he teamed up with Kareem, who was far more vital to the Bucks championship.

Who would actually start a team with this guy over the likes of Olajuwon and Duncan? We're talking about two defensive anchors that singlehandedly forced teams into taking lower percentage shots, and who both could score at will in the paint, regardless of what the other team through at them. Two guys that were actually the centerpieces on championship teams. It's like GeeWiz said, interior players are just better than perimeter players.

Yeah, y'all make some good points, but look at the talent his Royals were losing to compared to the other East teams in that era like the Celtics, Warriors/Sixers and the Hawks.


First the Royals:
Oscar - Top 12 player
Jerry Lucas - Top 45 player
Jack Twyman - Maybe top 100 player, (at best)

Celtics:
Russell - Top 6 player
Havlicek - Top 15-20 player
Cousy - Top 20-30 player
Sam Jones - Top 50
Bill Sharman - Top 50
Tom Heinsohn - Maybe top 100 player (same boat as Jack Twyman)
KC Jones


Wariors/76ers
Chamberlain - 2nd greatest
Hal Greer - Top 40
Billy Cunningham - Top 50
Chet Walker - (See Tom Heinsohn and Twyman)


Hawks:
Pettit - Top 12-15
Lenny Wilkens - Top 50
Cliff Hagan (See Heinsohn, Twyman, Walker)
Lou Hudson



And also, When Oscra hooked up with Lew in Milwauke, dude was already 32-33 years old.
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Old 06-30-2007, 01:10 AM   #66
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Answer
I agree with GeeWiz. Oscar's being overrated. Sure, he was versatile. He could score, rebound, pass, and defend. Okay, so he averaged a triple double for the first five years of his career. Everyone knows that. What people don't know, however, is that during his ten years in Cincinnati his team barely posted a winning percentage above .500. The guy didn't win anything until he teamed up with Kareem, who was far more vital to the Bucks championship.

5 out of 6 playoff seasons in cincy, his team was defeated by the legendary celtic and sixer teams.
Quote:
Who would actually start a team with this guy over the likes of Olajuwon and Duncan? We're talking about two defensive anchors that singlehandedly forced teams into taking lower percentage shots, and who both could score at will in the paint, regardless of what the other team through at them. Two guys that were actually the centerpieces on championship teams. It's like GeeWiz said, interior players are just better than perimeter players.

Who would start a team with Magic instead of Olajuwon or Duncan? Apparently a lot of people.



Some of O's accolades, since achievements mean so much in these debates:

1960-61 Rookie of the Year/All Star MVP
1963-64 MVP/All Star MVP
1968-69 All-Star MVP

9 time All NBA 1st team (1960-61 through 1968-69)
2 time All NBA 2nd team (1969-70 & 1970/71)

12 time consecutive All Star from 1960-1972

6 time league leader in assists

2 time league leader in FT%

He was one of the most efficient players ever.

NBA finals appearance in 71 & 74

NBA champion in 71

Last edited by Showtime : 06-30-2007 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 06-30-2007, 01:25 AM   #67
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

i'm surprised oscar sparks such strong opinions considering the fact that so few people have really seen him play. how can you know he's not the first guy you'd want on your team? how can you know he's not a 6' 5" allen iverson, great for filling a stat-sheet but too ball-dominating to produce a winning team (and i do like iverson for the record)?

i don't know, but i know that tossing up great stats does not guarantee that O is better than say duncan, who has relatively pedestrian stats for this list. on the other hand you can't have expected O to post massive win totals and collect a bunch of rings given the talent discrepency between the royals and celts / phili. the older folks whose opinions i trust say that he was truly great, and generally consider him one of the top 3 guards along with magic and michael. some rank him ahead of magic.

for me, it's tough to put a guy i haven't seen over someone like duncan who's style of play is so condusive to winning, but i've had the advantage of watching tim for a long time (and i do believe that hakeem has a legit argument over him, just going with the longer period of competitiveness). i really think at this point in the selection process it is getting tight. hakeem, tim, o, moses, even dr. j or elgin or west... you could probably make a compelling argument for any of them.
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Old 06-30-2007, 01:28 AM   #68
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Hakeem the Dream
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Old 06-30-2007, 02:12 AM   #69
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Tim Duncan has been playing at a championship level his entire career. Hakeem did it for 2 years.
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Old 06-30-2007, 02:16 AM   #70
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzle-2k7
Tim Duncan has been playing at a championship level his entire career. Hakeem did it for 2 years.
What do you mean?


Are you saying Hakeem only played at a championship level on the Rockets two title runs but Duncan, even when not reaching the finals, played at a championship level.
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Old 06-30-2007, 02:59 AM   #71
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Why does this board hang off older players nuts?
'I didn't see O-Rob play, but damn did that man fill the stat sheet up!1 '

When TD retires, even if he fails to collect any other accolades (unlikely), he will be considered better than Hakeem the Dream.
Tim Duncan produced. So did Hakeem, but not on the level of Duncan.
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Old 06-30-2007, 03:00 AM   #72
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

(My vote is for TD)
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Old 06-30-2007, 07:12 AM   #73
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzle-2k7
Tim Duncan has been playing at a championship level his entire career. Hakeem did it for 2 years.

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Old 06-30-2007, 07:45 AM   #74
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Whether I pick a great big man over him is another topic and is not so releant with the topic. I'd pick Garnett over Cousy, e.g, yet I'd never
I pick Oscar for #8, because of his meaning to the game. Prototype do-it-all- big guard, recorded as many triple-doubles in his first 5 years as Magic did throughout almost his whole career, he was dubbed selfish, yet, he did accept the role of the lesser star to Kareem, as a team player would do.
Hakeem is close, but he wasn't always "The Dream" that we remember from the mid-90's and there were times when his health and his leadership abilities were questioned. Duncan won 4 championships, but he brought nothing really new to basketball (well, maybe he did: Became the first player to be considered at times as the best in the world and still be viewed by many as boring to watch...) and his stats and dominance are not as overwhelming as Hakeem's in his own prime.

Quote:
Tim Duncan has been playing at a championship level his entire career. Hakeem did it for 2 years.

Yeah, I guess Hakeem wasn't a championship contender in 1986, 1993, 1996, 1997 or 1998...
OK, let me make a bold statement of my own: Put prime Hakeem to the 00's Spurs and till now he has 5 rings and 5 Finals' MVP's...
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Old 06-30-2007, 08:18 AM   #75
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Default Re: Official #8 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

This is what I can't stand about these lists.

Using the qualifications that you guys have used for the rest of the list, there is no way Hakeem should be ablove Duncan. No way. Because for most of this, you guys are looking at stats and accolades. That's pretty much it. Then, when it comes to ranking players from today's game, you talk about one player just flat out being superior to another, despite not much of a difference in their stats, and a huge difference in their accolades.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to say Duncan should be above Hakeem. I didn't watch prime Hakeem a whole lot, so I'm not about to make that decision, but you guys have to make up your minds whether this list has to do with career accomplishments, or with one player simply being better. Again, I didn't see Kareem, but there isn't much doubt in my mind that Shaq was the better individual player. From videos I've seen, the skyhook was deadly, but Kareem didn't dominate on both ends the way Shaq does. It's close of course, I would never say it's not, but Shaq was simply more dominant on offense, and more of a force on defense (debatable). Slight advantage once again, but the advantage goes to Shaq nonetheless.

Yet even with most of you probably agreeing that Shaq was better than Kareem in almost every way, you still have Kareem ahead on this list. Why? Decide on criteria, don't change it for every selection. That doesn't make any sense to do.

I just can't stand these alltime lists, because there's no objectivity in them. Most of you haven't seen a bunch of these players play, yet you rank them using numbers. Ugh, it just frustrates me.

Take Ray Allen. Undoubtedly a terrific player, but not on the level of the Wades, the Bryants, etc. Yet, what happens if two years ago (maybe 3, I forget), his supporting cast overachieves a lot. Management adds some great pieces, maybe a solid post player down low, stuff like that. They already went pretty far that year, let's say they make it to the championship. Allen still has his gaudy stats (27/5/5 for arguments sake), and he's the obvious leader of the squad. The main reason they won though wasn't him, but the rest of his team.

Now fast forward 20 years from now. People look back and compare Tmac and Ray. I guarantee you that anyone who didn't actually watch them calls Ray the better player. And that makes no sense. Just because Allen won something, did that change him at all? Did he actually improve, or was he just in the better situation? People look at Tmac's stats and records and call him a leader of a loser, or whatever you want to call it. Yet for us, RIGHT NOW, there's no way anyone would say Allen is better than McGrady. Because he's not. Tmac > Ray. Not all that debatable, and pretty much written in stone. One player is clearly superior, despite it still being pretty close.

And still, those 20 years from now, people will be thinking the exact opposite. Because Allen 'won'. It's completely non sensible.

That's what you guys are doing now. These alltime lists are retarded unless you've actually seen these players play.

I want to write more, but have no time. Ah well, you get the idea.

These lists = Ridonks pissed
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