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Old 03-18-2018, 01:14 AM   #1
3ball
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Default What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

Is it like a math equation, where the front office simply needs to add enough talent for the team to win?.. And I suppose adding talent that fits well together matters too (team chemistry)..

So if team chemistry matters to the front office, than its important to have a franchise player whose game fits well with a wide variety of supporting pieces.

And thats why MJ is superior to Lebron.. His less ball-dominant game fit better with a wider variety of players for better teamwork, so the front office could build around him easier with less talent or star power

The stats tell the story.. Scoring champs are almost never champions because their large scoring volume hurts chemistry.. But jordan won the scoring title and championship 6 times, with shaq and kareem doing it once each too.. So jordan scored a goat amount per game, but it was done in a way that allowed goat teamwork.. That makes him far better than the team-hopping, talent-chasing lebron
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Old 03-18-2018, 01:17 AM   #2
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

2011 Dirk
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Old 03-18-2018, 01:20 AM   #3
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

You abandoned your other thread entirely just to move the goalposts for your flawed agenda
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Old 03-18-2018, 01:21 AM   #4
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

2015 Stephen Curry
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Old 03-18-2018, 01:23 AM   #5
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

it all starts with the owner, followed by the front office. then you get a generational talent and build around him. you can overcome a bad owner if the owner somehow lucks into hiring a good front office and leaves him alone. otherwise, you get franchises ran by Ranadive and Dolan. no matter what the front office do or how many generational talent goes through them, those franchises will never win a championship with an owner like that.
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Old 03-18-2018, 04:27 AM   #6
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

Quote:
Originally Posted by I<3NBA
it all starts with the owner, followed by the front office. then you get a generational talent and build around him. you can overcome a bad owner if the owner somehow lucks into hiring a good front office and leaves him alone. otherwise, you get franchises ran by Ranadive and Dolan. no matter what the front office do or how many generational talent goes through them, those franchises will never win a championship with an owner like that.

True but this kind of quick, non-ball-dominant scoring.allows great teamwork






Otoh, this kind of ball-dominant shit from a forward prevents great teamwork:


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Old 03-18-2018, 09:59 AM   #7
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

*Isolating your best player against an average defender in order fo him to use his superior quickness and athleticism is a bad idea... *

hmm hmm great exemple
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Old 03-18-2018, 10:17 AM   #8
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

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Old 03-18-2018, 10:43 AM   #9
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

Whatís funny to me aside from your ever evolving reason Jordan is better than LeBron(which is never any of the actual reasons he is better) is you deciding a quarter century later that Jordan was especially easy to build a team around in direct conflict with what everyone had to say at the time.

I spent over a decade hearing about how Bird and Magic were winners and easier to play with then Jordan and how Jordan was a ball hog. Other players called him a ball hog. Players talked about how much he shot. The forums in existence at the time were full of people calling him a ball hog and selfish.

Jordan being the front runner of a new individual attacking style was often discussed in opposition to the great team players of the 80s.

I was always in the camp saying that if he had the talent the unselfish guys did heíd look unselfish too but....MJ being a ball hog was heavily discussed.


People treated Jordan just like you do Lebron calling him out for hurting teammates:





Jeff Mar 30 1990, 1:11 pm:
Again - you completely missed the point Barkley is making. His point is that
James Worthy and Keven McHale are great players in their own right, so it is
easy to credit Magic and Bird with improving their teammates. Barkley is
saying that if Bird were surrounded with Neelys instead of McHales, then Bird
might well hear the same criticism that Jordan (and Wilt) hear, that they don't
make their teammates better





cs225jd Mar 30 1990, 3:40 am:
The Bulls' supporting cast is one of the most underrated 'teams' in the NBA.
You can count the small forwards better than Pippen on one hand.
Everybody thought Hodges was great at the Shootout, but now he's a Bull and
he's not Jordan so he must suck. Paxson's the only person on the FG% leader
board under 6'8" or so - translation, he's making actual shots at 54%.
Medical Bill has one of the best defensive FG% in the league. Stacey King
should take second place for Rookie of the Year behind Hardaway. He's
made All-Star centers look absolutely incompetent.

Now, if the Bulls should (no!) actually WIN the whole thing, these same
experts will talk about how much better the Bulls have become and how
Michael IS a great team player. It would be much more intellectually
honest if they would just shut up now.






v127nq2e Mar 29 1990, 2:05 pm:

Well folks it looks as if Mr. Jordan is going to win yet
another scoring title. After last nights performance 3/28! WOW
can you believe 69 points, that's his career high! There is hardly
a doubt that he is one of the best the game has known. I know
there are those of you who are going to say that he does all the
work himself because he has no one to back him up-? SORRY
unfortunately these people fail to recognize Scottie pippen as one
of the better forwards in the league,(he was on the all-star team),
and let's not forget Sky king, who just happens to be one of the
best rookies this season. There are others Grant,Cartwright... but
need I get in to them-? I have made my point, and I hope people
will stop calling Chicago a one player team just because they have
one of the greatest players of all time.


---


Gautam Mar 29 1990, 5:20 pm:

Scottie Pippen and John Paxson seem to be the only Bulls'
players who don't look towards Jordan before taking a shot themselves !
It seems to me that Jordan intimidates his teammates more than he
intimidates his opponents. That is prob the biggest difference
between Magic and Jordan ! Why is it that guys like Orlando
Woolridge, James Edwards .. . start playing well when they play
for the Lakers/Pistons/Celts while decent/good prospects rarely pan
out for the Bulls ? [Ed Lor recently posted an excellent article on
this issue]. The Bulls lack a player who can get the
whole team involved in the game.









People just decided in retrospect to act like they always though Jordan was this or that.

I sat in Chicago stadium near other team fans who were adamant Jordan was a ball hog. Celtic fans especially. Celtic fans pissed me off for years with that.

You come up with way too many reasons Jordan was better than Lebron. You donít need all this.

He was a better defender, had a better midrange touch, and his attacking skill and relentless aggression made him a more reliable scorer which made him more prone to take over games individually instead of defer to less capable teammates.

It really is that simple. You donít need to redefine history and turn MJ to some team first easy to play with guy.

He wasnít that.

He was a distrusting dick who often only passed to get the ball back in better position to score. He got mad at teammates for shooting when he was double teamed at times....

He wasnít just....seamlessly blending in. But thatís part of what made him great. A more laid back MJ would have been a worse player.
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Old 03-18-2018, 12:30 PM   #10
AirBonner
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Whatís funny to me aside from your ever evolving reason Jordan is better than LeBron(which is never any of the actual reasons he is better) is you deciding a quarter century later that Jordan was especially easy to build a team around in direct conflict with what everyone had to say at the time.

I spent over a decade hearing about how Bird and Magic were winners and easier to play with then Jordan and how Jordan was a ball hog. Other players called him a ball hog. Players talked about how much he shot. The forums in existence at the time were full of people calling him a ball hog and selfish.

Jordan being the front runner of a new individual attacking style was often discussed in opposition to the great team players of the 80s.

I was always in the camp saying that if he had the talent the unselfish guys did heíd look unselfish too but....MJ being a ball hog was heavily discussed.


People treated Jordan just like you do Lebron calling him out for hurting teammates:





Jeff Mar 30 1990, 1:11 pm:
Again - you completely missed the point Barkley is making. His point is that
James Worthy and Keven McHale are great players in their own right, so it is
easy to credit Magic and Bird with improving their teammates. Barkley is
saying that if Bird were surrounded with Neelys instead of McHales, then Bird
might well hear the same criticism that Jordan (and Wilt) hear, that they don't
make their teammates better





cs225jd Mar 30 1990, 3:40 am:
The Bulls' supporting cast is one of the most underrated 'teams' in the NBA.
You can count the small forwards better than Pippen on one hand.
Everybody thought Hodges was great at the Shootout, but now he's a Bull and
he's not Jordan so he must suck. Paxson's the only person on the FG% leader
board under 6'8" or so - translation, he's making actual shots at 54%.
Medical Bill has one of the best defensive FG% in the league. Stacey King
should take second place for Rookie of the Year behind Hardaway. He's
made All-Star centers look absolutely incompetent.

Now, if the Bulls should (no!) actually WIN the whole thing, these same
experts will talk about how much better the Bulls have become and how
Michael IS a great team player. It would be much more intellectually
honest if they would just shut up now.






v127nq2e Mar 29 1990, 2:05 pm:

Well folks it looks as if Mr. Jordan is going to win yet
another scoring title. After last nights performance 3/28! WOW
can you believe 69 points, that's his career high! There is hardly
a doubt that he is one of the best the game has known. I know
there are those of you who are going to say that he does all the
work himself because he has no one to back him up-? SORRY
unfortunately these people fail to recognize Scottie pippen as one
of the better forwards in the league,(he was on the all-star team),
and let's not forget Sky king, who just happens to be one of the
best rookies this season. There are others Grant,Cartwright... but
need I get in to them-? I have made my point, and I hope people
will stop calling Chicago a one player team just because they have
one of the greatest players of all time.


---


Gautam Mar 29 1990, 5:20 pm:

Scottie Pippen and John Paxson seem to be the only Bulls'
players who don't look towards Jordan before taking a shot themselves !
It seems to me that Jordan intimidates his teammates more than he
intimidates his opponents. That is prob the biggest difference
between Magic and Jordan ! Why is it that guys like Orlando
Woolridge, James Edwards .. . start playing well when they play
for the Lakers/Pistons/Celts while decent/good prospects rarely pan
out for the Bulls ? [Ed Lor recently posted an excellent article on
this issue]. The Bulls lack a player who can get the
whole team involved in the game.









People just decided in retrospect to act like they always though Jordan was this or that.

I sat in Chicago stadium near other team fans who were adamant Jordan was a ball hog. Celtic fans especially. Celtic fans pissed me off for years with that.

You come up with way too many reasons Jordan was better than Lebron. You donít need all this.

He was a better defender, had a better midrange touch, and his attacking skill and relentless aggression made him a more reliable scorer which made him more prone to take over games individually instead of defer to less capable teammates.

It really is that simple. You donít need to redefine history and turn MJ to some team first easy to play with guy.

He wasnít that.

He was a distrusting dick who often only passed to get the ball back in better position to score. He got mad at teammates for shooting when he was double teamed at times....

He wasnít just....seamlessly blending in. But thatís part of what made him great. A more laid back MJ would have been a worse player.

Well said blaze I think it is pretty clear that 3ball never actually watched Jordan
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Old 03-18-2018, 12:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

Kblaze, nothing you've said is new and is the same shit that haters have been saying for the last 25 years (MJ is a ball hog), yet it was clear that MJ's game did contain quick, non-ball-dominant scoring which translated into great teamwork. However, there were just times when MJ simply needed to take over, and while teamwork suffered during those moments, it resulted in wins. At that point, a fan who's team MJ pissed on has only one rebuttal:

"ball hog"

If 3ball were to post what you suggest, it would be the same boring shit that everyone has already heard. At least he adds a different perspective and provides insight to MJ's game back then compared to today's game and brings in site traffic.

It's not MJ's fault that he set the bar so high that Lebron's game is mediocre by comparison. Those who never saw MJ are BLESSED because they have people like 3ball and myself that they can ask about how GOAT MJ was. Now fast forward 60-70 years from now. Imagine a world with everyone never having seen MJ and not having anyone alive that saw MJ that can tell them how dominant he was. These gen Z kids need to count their blessings, they don't know how good they have it.
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Old 03-18-2018, 12:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?



Your insecurities are showing. You post a lot about LeBron.
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Old 03-18-2018, 01:08 PM   #13
Hey Yo
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

Quote:
Originally Posted by egokiller
Kblaze, nothing you've said is new and is the same shit that haters have been saying for the last 25 years (MJ is a ball hog), yet it was clear that MJ's game did contain quick, non-ball-dominant scoring which translated into great teamwork. However, there were just times when MJ simply needed to take over, and while teamwork suffered during those moments, it resulted in wins. At that point, a fan who's team MJ pissed on has only one rebuttal:

"ball hog"

If 3ball were to post what you suggest, it would be the same boring shit that everyone has already heard. At least he adds a different perspective and provides insight to MJ's game back then compared to today's game and brings in site traffic.

It's not MJ's fault that he set the bar so high that Lebron's game is mediocre by comparison. Those who never saw MJ are BLESSED because they have people like 3ball and myself that they can ask about how GOAT MJ was. Now fast forward 60-70 years from now. Imagine a world with everyone never having seen MJ and not having anyone alive that saw MJ that can tell them how dominant he was. These gen Z kids need to count their blessings, they don't know how good they have it.


Yeah, you know so much about MJ..... you were able to tell me stories about his Senior year @ UNC that I've never heard before
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Old 03-18-2018, 01:11 PM   #14
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hey Yo


Yeah, you know so much about MJ..... you were able to tell me stories about his Senior year @ UNC that I've never heard before

Huh? MJ never played as a senior @ UNC.
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Old 03-18-2018, 01:14 PM   #15
Hey Yo
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Default Re: What does it take for a franchise player to win a ring organically?

I know... I had to bring that to your attention when you tried to tell me about his Senior year at UNC.
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