Anthropomorphic Measurement of NBA bigmen 60s/70s vs Modern NBA era

[Linspired]

let's not go there. Bill Russell is 78 old grandpa. and russell is actually clearly taller. Russell most like lost 1 1/2 inch of his height. he has shrunk again compared to last year.


Bron seems like he isn't full 6ft 8.



boozer was measured at 6ft 7 3/4. i think tayshaun prince was not officially measured but he is indeed between 6ft 8 - 6ft 8 1/2 because he was clearly shorter than sheed and webber.

[Linspired]

BTW, (and 32Jazz mentioned this already)...

Bob Beamon long jumped 29' 2" in 1968. That mark stood until Mike Powell barely broke it in 1991, with a leap of 29' 4"...

which is STILL the record TODAY.

So, in 44 years we have seen the long jump record increase by TWO INCHES (and that was set over 20 years ago.)

long jump is notable for several of the longest-standing world records. my guess is that there is a limit to how far we can jump. jesse owens record stood for like 25 years. it gets broken every 25 years or so. lol

but that doesn't change the fact that 'speed' of the game is much faster right now then back in 60's.

[Linspired]

Put Bolt in the same circumstances...with shoes that don't fit, and on a track with trenches in it, and let's see him run a 9.59.

no doubt hayes will be an elite sprinter in any era, but he won't be shaving .48 sec even with all the nutrients, training, and new pair of shoes. and old

bolt is just a freak who is way way ahead of his time. i thought 9.5s would happen in 2030 or so. he is just a freak of nature.

[Linspired]

hey cav do you have measurement on

Ralph Sampson
Dikembe Mutombo


I believe both are 7ft 1 range. no?

[magnax1]

I think Ralph Sampson was a legit 7'2, but I can't say for certain. Pretty crazy considering he was basically the PF for Houston once Hakeem came in.

[jlauber]

no doubt hayes will be an elite sprinter in any era, but he won't be shaving .48 sec even with all the nutrients, training, and new pair of shoes. and old

bolt is just a freak who is way way ahead of his time. i thought 9.5s would happen in 2030 or so. he is just a freak of nature.

I agree about Bolt...which is precisely my point. The AVERAGE athlete is better today, than they were 10-20-30-40-50 years ago. MARGINALLY better. And 30 years from now, they will be MARGINALLY better than what we see today.

Having said that, though, there are these "freaks" who pop up every generation, or so. Look at Shaq. 7-1, 325-350 lbs, with exceptional athleticism, and in his prime, even amazing endurance. He was at his peak in 2000, or so. Where are the new Shaq's?

Then go back to Chamberlain. The fact is, there has not been anyone even remotely close to his size, strength, and athletcism, INCLUDING Shaq. IN his era, Wilt was considered not only the strongest basketball player, but among the strongest ATHLETES in the WORLD. Many here today scoff at the notion that Wilt could bench 500+ lbs, but just google his strength. Why is the internet just plastered with these accounts (even eye-witness one's), which credit him wiith that feat...and yet, there are virtually NO legitimate claims to DISPUTE them?

Speed? A case could be made that Wilt may very well have been the fastest basketball player of all-time. Here again, the "ESPN generation" posters will laugh at anyone who suggests such a thing. BUT, think about this...he was a SPRINTER on KU's 4x100 team. And Wilt, himself, claimed to have run a 4.4 40. Now before anyone jumps in and rips that comment as some kind of "embellishment" on Chamberlain's part, ... Wilt was timed in a 4.6 40 in the mid-60's, at age 27, and at 290 lbs, by none other than Hank Stram. Now, does a 22 year old Wilt, at around 250-260 lbs, running a 4.4 seem so unbelieveable?

Leaping ability? Recently Sports Science ran an episode in which Dwight Howard supposedly broke Shaq's "record" by an NBA player, which was a leap that reached 12' 5", with one of 12' 6". Pretty amazing for a 6-10 leaper. HOWEVER, there are at least two eye-witness accounts of Wilt touching the top of the backboard (not to mention that Wilt, himself, claims such a feat.) One was by Philly sports icon, Sonny Hill, and the other by long time Sixer trainer, Al Domenico. Here again, though, many of the current generation just laughed that off as a joke. BUT, we have solid footage of Wilt blocking a shot, in a leap in which he has no time to react, goes straight up (no running start like Howard in that episode), and blocks it with his off-hand...and with his fingertips within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard. Not only that, but we also have footage of a 34 year old Chamberlain, at 300+ lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee, again blocking a shot, and in the same circumstances (no time to react, and going straight up) in which his fingertips are above the top of the square (and probably close to 12'.)

Not only that, but we have video footage (of what was a COMMON occurance) in which an old Chamberlain blocks TWO straight Kareem sky-hooks...in the AIR (not while still in his hand.) Incidently, there are a known 29 Chamberlain blocks of Kareem's shots (obviously many of them "sky-hooks") and in just SIX of their 28 H2H games (as well as another account of NUMEROUS blocks.) Given the fact that the two went H2H 28 times, there is a good chance that Chamberlain probably blocked some 50 "unblockable" sky-hooks in his career.

Then, there is a video taped conversation, with none other than Tex Winter, who claims to have witnessed a high school Wilt, with three steps from behind the FT line, dunking the ball with a leap from behind the FT line. He was so stunned, that he engineered the rule that prevented the dunking of FTs, as he said, because of "freakish activity."

Finally, Wilt's college coach, Phog Allen, rolled out a 12 ft. basket back in the 50's, and there are accounts of Wilt dunking on it (of course, including Wilt himself.) There are those today who can dunk on a 12 ft. rim, but they are world class leapers.

There were other great NBA athletes in the 60's and 70's, as well. Bill Russell was ranked seventh in the WORLD in the high-jump in the 50's. Gus Johnson made a leap, withg multiple eye-witnesses in attendance, in which he touched a nail, in 1963, that only Joey Johnson could duplicate some 25 years later. Joey Johnson? Google him. He was 6-4 and could get his chin above the rim, and was credited with a 50+" vertical. Hell, you can go back to the late 40's, when Jim Pollard, who was 6-4 and white, was known to have been dunking a ball with a running leap from behind the FT line.

I have already presented the fact that Bob Hayes is still the fastest legitimate NFL football player of all-time. He ran a 10.06 100 meters in the mid-60's. And, as Bwink mentioned, Darrell Green and Bo Jackson, who were at their peaks in the 80's, were running sub 4.2 40's (as was Deion Sanders.) And 6-2 220 lb. Hershel Walker was a WORLD CLASS sprinter in the 80's, (as was OJ Simpson in the 60's.)

Who hit the longest HRs ever measured? None other than 5-11 190 lb. Mickey Mantle. And he hit MANY 500+ ft. HRs, as well. Just google him. There has never been anyone else, including a PED-enhanced McGwire, who could a ball as far. And Nolan Ryan was clocked at 101 MPH, on his 162nd pitch, in a game in 1974...by a SLOW gun. There is an article which claims that Ryan's fastest pitches would be measured at around 107 MPH with the faster radar guns used today. My god, at age 46, and on an injured arm, his LAST pitch was clocked at 98 MPH. And there were many who would claim that the unknown Steve Dalkowski, who was laboring in the minors in the 50's and 60's, was the fastest pitcher of all-time (just google him.)

The bottom line is that why virtually every generation becomes bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic, it is by only MARGINAL amounts. And, clearly, there have been these athletic "freaks" that only come around every 25-50 years, as well.

[Punpun]

Now I'm 100% sure Jlaube is actually clowning some other user. No way you spent all that time writing that totally hs post.

[millwad]

The bottom line is that why virtually every generation becomes bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic, it is by only MARGINAL amounts. And, clearly, there have been these athletic "freaks" that only come around every 25-50 years, as well.

True, but still it's a fact that there's a huge difference in terms of athleticism in the '60's compared to today.

[jlauber]

True, but still it's a fact that there's a huge difference in terms of athleticism in the '60's compared to today.

It depends on the sport. Clearly the average football player is much bigger, and overall, slightly faster. We have 350 lb. linemen, and even QBs in the 260 lb range (as well as QBs running 4.3 40's today.)

And there are some track events in which the differences are considerable. The high-jump is a great example. BUT, the TECHNIQUES, as well as the SURFACES are much different. Hell, a guy would have broken his back or neck doing the "Fosbury Flop" in the 50's, with the landing areas that existed back then.

And of course the pole vault, with much better equipment, is considerably higher.

I recall a couple of years ago, that swimming records were being smashed because of the body suits, too.

But, here again, the SPEED of the fastest NFL players is nowhere near it's peak in today's NFL. Chris Johnson would be smoked by Hershel Walker, Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson, Darrell Green, and Bob Hayes. There were players like Travis Williams, Henry Childs, and OJ in the 60's, as well, as Cliff Branch, and the Cardinals Mel Gray in the 70's, who would be the fastest NFL players today.

And I mentioned Mickey Mantle, but there were other's too. There is footage of Reggie Jackson's '71 All-Star game shot on YouTube. Willie Stargell, Frank Howard (who was 6-8 and 250 lbs in the 60's), Willie McCovey, and Harmon Killebrew, were smashing "tape-measure" bombs in the 60's, too. Even Lou Brock, who was never known as a HR hitter, hit a monster shot out of the Polo Grounds.

Ryan may very well have been the hardest thrower of all-time, but again, just google Steve Dalkowski (as a sidenote, "The Wild Thing" from the movie Major League, was supposedly based on either Dalkowski, or Ryne Duran.) And supposedly Bob Feller would have been measured at over 100 with a modern gun. Even Sandy Koufax, who I believe was estimated in the high 90's, was deceptive. He had to SLOW down his fastbasll to control it.

In any case, if you really examine the sport, and take into account advances in equipment, training, and medical technology, there is probably very little differences in performances in the last 50+ years.

[jlauber]

long jump is notable for several of the longest-standing world records. my guess is that there is a limit to how far we can jump. jesse owens record stood for like 25 years. it gets broken every 25 years or so. lol

but that doesn't change the fact that 'speed' of the game is much faster right now then back in 60's.

I don't think there is ANY evidence that suggests that the "speed of the game is much faster right now." This past season the NBA averaged 96.3 ppg. In the 60's, it was between 112 to 119 ppg. And take a look at the footage of the NBA in the 80's, too (particularly Laker highlights.)

[millwad]

It depends on the sport. Clearly the average football player is much bigger, and overall, slightly faster. We have 350 lb. linemen, and even QBs in the 260 lb range (as well as QBs running 4.3 40's today.)

Obviously.

And there are some track events in which the differences are considerable. The high-jump is a great example. BUT, the TECHNIQUES, as well as the SURFACES are much different. Hell, a guy would have broken his back or neck doing the "Fosbury Flop" in the 50's, with the landing areas that existed back then.

Obviously.

And of course the pole vault, with much better equipment, is considerably higher.

Obviously.

I recall a couple of years ago, that swimming records were being smashed because of the body suits, too.

Yes, it almost ruined the sport, they banned them now.
But now when the body suits are gone, they still swim way faster than what they did decades ago, especially compared to the 60's...

But, here again, the SPEED of the fastest NFL players is nowhere near it's peak in today's NFL. Chris Johnson would be smoked by Hershel Walker, Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson, Darrell Green, and Bob Hayes. There were players like Travis Williams, Henry Childs, and OJ in the 60's, as well, as Cliff Branch, and the Cardinals Mel Gray in the 70's, who would be the fastest NFL players today.

Walker played in the 80's and 90's, Deion reitred 7 years ago, Jackson played in the late 80's and so did Green. Hayes was beyond amazing. Not too aware of NFL to make any comments regarding it but you started off with naming modern era players.


I'm sure that the modern players are more athletic compared to the players of the 60's.

And I mentioned Mickey Mantle, but there were other's too. There is footage of Reggie Jackson's '71 All-Star game shot on YouTube. Willie Stargell, Frank Howard (who was 6-8 and 250 lbs in the 60's), Willie McCovey, and Harmon Killebrew, were smashing "tape-measure" bombs in the 60's, too. Even Lou Brock, who was never known as a HR hitter, hit a monster shot out of the Polo Grounds.

You mention certain events and player, I mean overall. In the NBA they had freaks like Chamberlain and Russell who would be just as freaky in terms of being athletic compared to modern players but that's not my point. My point is that overall players are more athletic in the modern era of sports compared to what they used to be in the 60's.

In any case, if you really examine the sport, and take into account advances in equipment, training, and medical technology, there is probably very little differences in performances in the last 50+ years.

Sure thing, I've never denied that the modern era players have better equipment, better way of practice and medical technology. But it's still a fact if you compare the players of the 60's to the one's we got today, that the modern era players are far more athletic.

[millwad]

Now I'm 100% sure Jlaube is actually clowning some other user. No way you spent all that time writing that totally hs post.

Can't confirm it but I've heard that Jlauber copy and pastes alot of stuff from other sites and then makes them his own by editing them some.

[jlauber]

Unfortunately, there is very little footage of Gus Johnson in the 60's, when he was at his peak athleticism. Here is some footage of Johnson late in his career, and with bad knees...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkzRjMC1ZpI

What is noteworthy, though, was his excellent shooting range of 15-18 ft. I bring that up because he was a BEAST in his prime. Walt Frazier mentions it in that video, but Gus shattered THREE backboards in his career. He was 6-6 and around 230 lbs.

And I have posted this before, but for those that may not have read it...

http://www.cornerclubmoscow.com/joom...&id=1&Itemid=2

When Johnson played at Idaho in 1963, he already had a reputation as a leaper of the highest order. One evening at the Corner Club, a local tavern on Main Street in Moscow, Johnson was requested by owner Herm Goetz to display his rare ability to the patrons. The Corner Club was a very modest establishment, converted from a white-stuccoed small chapel in the 1940s with hardwood floors and a beamed ceiling. From a standing start near the bar, Johnson touched a spot on a beam 11'6" (3.505 m) above the floor. This spot was ceremoniously marked with a nail by Goetz, who then proudly proclaimed that anyone who could duplicate the feat could drink for free. A 40-inch (1.016 m) diameter circle was painted on the floor, and both feet had to start inside the circle to ensure a standing start. A full 23 years went by with many attempts at Gus Johnson's Nail, including Bill Walton in the summer of 1984, but there were no successes.

That was until 1986, when the College of Southern Idaho basketball team from Twin Falls stopped in town in January on their way to a game against NIC in Coeur d'Alene. Joey Johnson, a younger brother of then NBA star Dennis Johnson, was brought into the Corner Club for a try. The 6'3" (1.905 m) guard had a 48" (1.219 m) vertical leap and could put his chin on a basketball rim (10 feet (3.048 m)) with a running start.

Johnson laced up his shoes and touched the nail on his first try but was disqualified because he did not start with both feet inside the 40-inch circle. The next attempt came from a legal static start but was just a bit short. On his third try, Johnson grabbed and bent the legendary nail, a landmark event in Vandal sports history. Goetz pulled the nail out of the beam and pounded it back in, a half inch (13 mm) higher.

So, here is what we know...Gus was a full 6-6, 230 lbs, and had a vertical of somewhere around 45+".

Then, take a look at the video footage of his SKILLS above.

And yet, he was a career 17 ppg, 13 rpg, .440 shooter. His career high in scoring was 20.7 ppg, and late in his career (and on bad knees) he averaged 17 rpg. And, in the mid-60's he was shooting as low as .413.

So, here was an athletic MONSTER, with solid SKILLS...and yet, how come he wasn't putting up 30-20 seasons on the "unathletic" players of the 60's?

[jlauber]

Walker played in the 80's and 90's, Deion reitred 7 years ago, Jackson played in the late 80's and so did Green. Hayes was beyond amazing. Not too aware of NFL to make any comments regarding it but you started off with naming modern era players.


I'm sure that the modern players are more athletic compared to the players of the 60's.

Green was running 10.08 100 meters in 1983. Walker ran a 9.2 100 yard dash in high school in 1979. Jackson was running world-class 60 meter times in the mid-80's. I have also mentioned it previously, but Green, at age 50, went out an ran a 4.43! Think about that...how many NFL players, TODAY, can run a legit 4.43? It is not very many. In any case, he was supposedly clocked at a 4.15 in his prime...and some 30 years ago.

[Colbertnation64]

damn son, russell was crazy athletic.