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Old 06-13-2011, 12:10 PM   #1
Odinn
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Default 2003 Spurs vs. 2011 Mavs

It's not a 2003 Duncan vs. 2011 Nowitzki thread.

This thread about entire teams. Not only Duncan vs. Dirk.

You think which team is better one? And in a 7 game series, which team should win?

Last edited by Odinn : 06-13-2011 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:17 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2003 Spurs vs. 2011 Mavs

You never know with Tim playing as well as he did in 2003, but Dallas did have a tougher path to win the title.

Both teams were good at both ends with the Spurs being the much better defensive team and the Mavs having more offensive firepower. Tim was better than Dirk, but Dallas has much more of 2nd option in Terry and better shooters. I'd say Dallas has a more versatile backcourt, but the Spurs were much better in the paint. Chandler gave the Mavs some rebounding and defense, but the Spurs had Tim at his peak, Robinson and Rose to rebound and play defense, plus Tim's faceup, post game and in those days, the mobility and size to guard either position allowed the Spurs to go with the big lineup of Tim/Robinson or a more traditional lineup with Duncan and Rose. Plus they had the game's premier stopper on the perimeter in Bowen. This is why they were able to handle the Lakers.

In reality, both teams were built well around their stars, of course, they relied on them heavily, but both casts stepped up with big games and big shots when they needed it and complemented their superstars while executing at both ends(though Dallas didn't always play good defense).

Both teams are better than they look on paper, it's hard for me to pick, I'd have to see the teams play each other even though it's a cop out.
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:29 PM   #3
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Default Re: 2003 Spurs vs. 2011 Mavs

Spurs were the better team because of Duncan.

He could play nearly entire games, and did. In first and last two games of the playoffs (ie. first round and Finals) he played 46 minutes of those games.

I can't envision a 32 year old version of Duncan or Dirk carrying that team like that.

Basically, you have to fully understand what Duncan himself meant to that Spurs team before you evaluate the rest of the roster. Not only was he the offensive force, he was literally and singlehandedly denying shots on the other end (think about what that does to the opponent's mentality), and he rebounded more missed shots in that playoff run than anybody not named Wilt or Bill Russell....

absolutely legendary.

I'd venture to say Duncan at that time could have one with almost any decent roster. The next season they replaced David with the lumbering Rasho and the team won 57 games.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:23 PM   #4
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Default Re: 2003 Spurs vs. 2011 Mavs

The big difference between them is EXPERIENCE.

The 2002-03 Spurs team was characterized by a superstar with a bunch of young, untested, inexperienced players who constantly gave up big leads with 4th quarter melt-downs. Here are the number of years in the league (those who played double digit mins and sorted by PPG):

Parker 2
Jackson 2
Manu 1

Malik 6
Robinson 14
Bowen 6
Claxton 3
Total years: 34

The 2010-11 Mavs team is a superstar with a bunch of battle-tested, experienced veterans who repeatedly come back from being down in 4th quarters to win games.

Terry 11
Marion 11
Kidd 16
Barea 4
Chandler 9
Peja 12
Stevenson 10
Haywood 9
Total years: 82

So if you were to take out David Robinson who only played 23 mins/game, the Spurs who played double-digit mins. had a total of 20 years in the league - that's less than 3 years per player. That's a very inexperienced team. The Spurs' 2nd, 3rd and 4th (rookie) options had 5 years experience among them.

The difference in experience between the rosters is why IMO Duncan's run was better than Dirk's.

Duncan 03 playoffs - 24.7 pts / 15.4 reb / 5.3 asst on 52.9% FG
Dirk 11 playoffs - 27.7 pts / 8.1 reb / 2.5 asst on 48.5% FG

In a 7 game series, I think that Dallas '11 would beat Spurs '03.
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Old 06-13-2011, 05:18 PM   #5
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Default Re: 2003 Spurs vs. 2011 Mavs

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmt
The big difference between them is EXPERIENCE.

The 2002-03 Spurs team was characterized by a superstar with a bunch of young, untested, inexperienced players who constantly gave up big leads with 4th quarter melt-downs. Here are the number of years in the league (those who played double digit mins and sorted by PPG):

Parker 2
Jackson 2
Manu 1

Malik 6
Robinson 14
Bowen 6
Claxton 3
Total years: 34

The 2010-11 Mavs team is a superstar with a bunch of battle-tested, experienced veterans who repeatedly come back from being down in 4th quarters to win games.

Terry 11
Marion 11
Kidd 16
Barea 4
Chandler 9
Peja 12
Stevenson 10
Haywood 9
Total years: 82

So if you were to take out David Robinson who only played 23 mins/game, the Spurs who played double-digit mins. had a total of 20 years in the league - that's less than 3 years per player. That's a very inexperienced team. The Spurs' 2nd, 3rd and 4th (rookie) options had 5 years experience among them.

The difference in experience between the rosters is why IMO Duncan's run was better than Dirk's.

Duncan 03 playoffs - 24.7 pts / 15.4 reb / 5.3 asst on 52.9% FG
Dirk 11 playoffs - 27.7 pts / 8.1 reb / 2.5 asst on 48.5% FG

In a 7 game series, I think that Dallas '11 would beat Spurs '03.
How about Popovich vs. Carlisle? Don't forget that.

Your arguments so simple and IMO not clear-cut. It's about performances.

6 year experienced Bowen > 10 year experienced Stevenson
6 year experienced M. Rose > 9 year experienced Haywood
9 year experienced Chandler > 14 year experienced Admiral

At least IMO. Your logic fails for me.
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:36 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2003 Spurs vs. 2011 Mavs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odinn
How about Popovich vs. Carlisle? Don't forget that.

Your arguments so simple and IMO not clear-cut. It's about performances.

6 year experienced Bowen > 10 year experienced Stevenson
6 year experienced M. Rose > 9 year experienced Haywood
9 year experienced Chandler > 14 year experienced Admiral

At least IMO. Your logic fails for me.

Experience and team chemistry are very important in winning tight, pressure-packed playoff games. Dirk, in his interview, mentioned what he learned from his previous failure in 06, that the game is not over until clock says 0:00 and how the Mavs never gave up and trusted in each other when they were down - all of which enabled them to come back from being down many times in the 4th quarter.

Compare that to a team where the 2nd option (Parker) had played in 1 playoff run and where the 3rd option (Stephen Jackson) and the 4th option (Manu - a rookie) had never played a playoff game before 03. They did not have the team chemistry (Parker - 2 years, Jackson and Manu - 1 year with the Spurs) or the (regular season or playoff) experience to keep leads, much less make 4th quarter come backs (like the Mavs did).

It's this difference in experience why IMO Duncan's run was more impressive than Dirk's. However, I (and I'm a Spurs fan) think that the team chemistry and experience of the 11 Mavs would prevail over the 03 Spurs in a 7 game series.

And yes, Pop > Carlisle but in the end it's the players that play and young, inexperienced ones make more dumb, stupid mistakes and are not as focused/mentally tough as older, seasoned veterans.
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:03 AM   #7
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Default Re: 2003 Spurs vs. 2011 Mavs

I'm not saying 2011 Mavs aren't more experienced than 2003 Spurs. But chemistry?

2011 Mavs had 9 15+ mpg players.
Their number of seasons under control of Rick Carlisle;
Nowitzki - 3rd season
Kidd - 3rd season
Terry - 3rd season
Marion - 2nd season
Barea - 3rd season
Chandler - 1st season
StojakoviÁ - 0,5th season
Stevenson - 1,5th season
Haywood - 1,5th season
18,5 seasons - average 2,05 seasons

2003 Spurs had 7 15+ mpg players.
Their number of seasons under control of Gregg Popovich;
Duncan - 6th season
Robinson - 6th season (I didn't count his injury-season)
Parker - 2nd season
Jackson - 2nd season
Ginobili - 1st season
Rose - 6th season
Bowen - 2nd season
25 seasons - average 3,57 seasons

So...

PS: I'm not claiming 2003 Spurs better than 2011 Mavs. But your logic doesn't work for me. Has so many mistaken points.

Last edited by Odinn : 06-14-2011 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:03 AM   #8
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Default Re: 2003 Spurs vs. 2011 Mavs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odinn
I'm not saying 2011 Mavs aren't more experienced than 2003 Spurs. But chemistry?

2011 Mavs had 9 15+ mpg players.
Their number of seasons under control of Rick Carlisle;
Nowitzki - 3rd season
Kidd - 3rd season
Terry - 3rd season
Marion - 2nd season
Barea - 3rd season
Chandler - 1st season
StojakoviÁ - 0,5th season
Stevenson - 1,5th season
Haywood - 1,5th season
18,5 seasons - average 2,05 seasons

2003 Spurs had 7 15+ mpg players.
Their number of seasons under control of Gregg Popovich;
Duncan - 6th season
Robinson - 6th season (I didn't count his injury-season)
Parker - 2nd season
Jackson - 2nd season
Ginobili - 1st season
Rose - 6th season
Bowen - 2nd season
25 seasons - average 3,57 seasons

So...

PS: I'm not claiming 2003 Spurs better than 2011 Mavs. But your logic doesn't work for me. Has so many mistaken points.

Interesting here's how they stack up against the other 2000s/2010s championship teams.

2000 Lakers, 2004 Pistons and 2006 Heat were in their first year with their coach, though iley had coached in Miami until several years earlier, no 15+ mpg players in the playoffs had played for him prior to that season.

2001 Lakers
Shaq- 2nd season
Kobe- 2nd season
Fisher- 2nd season
Fox- 2nd season
Grant- 1st season(though he played under Jackson for 4 seasons with the Bulls)
Horry- 2nd season
Shaw- 2nd season

2002 Lakers
Shaq- 3rd season
Kobe- 3rd season
Fisher- 3rd season
Fox- 3rd season
Horry- 3rd season
George- 3rd season

2005 Spurs
Duncan- 8th season
Ginobili- 3rd season
Parker- 4th season
Bowen- 4th season
Horry- 2nd season
Barry- 1st season
Mohammed- 0.5 season

2007 Spurs
Duncan- 10th season
Parker- 6th season
Ginobili- 5th season
Bowen- 6th season
Horry- 4th season
Finley- 2nd season
Oberto- 2nd season

2008 Celtics
Garnett- 1st season
Pierce- 4th season
Allen- 1st season
Rondo- 1st season
Perkins- 4th season
Posey- 1st season

2009 Lakers
Kobe- 4th season(9th total under Jackson)
Gasol- 1.5 seasons
Odom- 4th season
Bynum- 4th season
Ariza- 1.5 seasons
Fisher- 2nd season(7th total under Jackson)
Walton- 4th season(5th total under Jackson)

2010 Lakers
Kobe- 5th season(10th total under Jackson
Gasol- 2.5 seasons
Odom- 5th season
Bynum- 5th season
Artest- 1st season
Fisher- 3rd season(8th total under Jackson)
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:10 AM   #9
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Default Re: 2003 Spurs vs. 2011 Mavs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odinn
I'm not saying 2011 Mavs aren't more experienced than 2003 Spurs. But chemistry?

2011 Mavs had 9 15+ mpg players.
Their number of seasons under control of Rick Carlisle;
Nowitzki - 3rd season
Kidd - 3rd season
Terry - 3rd season
Marion - 2nd season
Barea - 3rd season
Chandler - 1st season
StojakoviÁ - 0,5th season
Stevenson - 1,5th season
Haywood - 1,5th season
18,5 seasons - average 2,05 seasons

2003 Spurs had 7 15+ mpg players.
Their number of seasons under control of Gregg Popovich;
Duncan - 6th season
Robinson - 6th season (I didn't count his injury-season)
Parker - 2nd season
Jackson - 2nd season
Ginobili - 1st season
Rose - 6th season
Bowen - 2nd season
25 seasons - average 3,57 seasons

So...

PS: I'm not claiming 2003 Spurs better than 2011 Mavs. But your logic doesn't work for me. Has so many mistaken points.

Don't forget Speedy Claxton (didnt play over 15 mpg but worth mentioning). Just his second season in the league, but he was a key player off the bench. It was his first and only season with the Spurs and his minutes were up and down, but he played in every playoff game and had some clutch moments. Personally, I think the Spurs had more chemistry. But the Mavs had more experience, and for lack of a better term, "desperation" from what I could tell. (Both Duncan and Robinson had earned a championship prior to 03).. None the less, TD was a perennial MVP candidate and the Spurs that season were 16-4 in their last 20 games going into the playoffs. Dallas was lead by guys who had gone through alot of playoff battles (some more successful than others) in Dirk, Terry, Kidd, Marion, etc, and didn't have a "great" regular season per se, but they looked hungry in the PO's. And yes technically it's Kidd's third season with the Mavs, but there's some history there.
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:37 AM   #10
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Default Re: 2003 Spurs vs. 2011 Mavs

tough one but ill bet on Duncan
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:03 AM   #11
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Default Re: 2003 Spurs vs. 2011 Mavs

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Old 06-14-2011, 12:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2003 Spurs vs. 2011 Mavs

Odinn, my main point was the EXPERIENCE - not necessarily the team chemistry. It's Chandler's first year with the Mavs, but he's a 9 year vet.

With the Spurs, their #2, #3 and #4 options had 5 years (regular season) and 1 year (playoff) experience - only Parker. A team with their #2, #3 and #4 scoring options with so little experience and Parker being so young (only 20) is prone to meltdowns and dumb, stupid mistakes and in Manu's case - being out of control - so unlike a team of experienced, seasoned veterans (no matter how many years they haven't played together - see the Boston Celtics and how they quickly came together for their championship run).

Excuse me if my first post didn't come across as I meant.
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:06 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2003 Spurs vs. 2011 Mavs

The 2003 Spurs were BARELY better than the 2003 Mavs team that played no defense. The 2011 Mavs would wipe the floor with that 2003 Spurs team.
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