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  1. #706
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
    I'm just gonna make a few statements which I believe to be true and show that Kobe is this years MVP:

    - Kobe is a better scorer and defender, Bron is a better rebounder and playmaker. I don't see how this is arguable.
    - The system Kobe plays in is less conducive to stats than the system Bron plays in. I don't think this is arguable as well.
    - Kobe's team is performing way better than Bron's team. This isn't arguable, just look at their records. Kobe's team is winning 71% of its games, Bron's team is winning 57%.
    - Kobe is making his teammates better than Bron is making his. Gasol, Fisher, Vujacic, Farmar, Bynum, Turiaf are all having career years next to Kobe. This is not so much the case with the Cavs. Hughes and Gooden regressed, Ben Wallace and Wally Z aren't playing better for the Cavs than they were for teams they were very unhappy with.
    -how can kobe be the better scorer when lebron averages more than kobe

    -last year when kobe had no help and lebron had no help didnt lebron make it to the finals

    -lebron made his team better as well (big Z, boobie, devin brown, delonte, anderson varajoe, smith,damon jones)

  2. #707
    What set you claim? KenneBell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
    i
    As for PER, you're probably right, but that's because defense isn't measured in PER, but rebounding and assists are. As Bron is a better rebounder and playmaker, Bron will have a higher PER. Does not make him a better player though.
    I'll tell what's surprising about PER, Magic Johnson's numbers look completely average using it which is ridiculous in my opinion.

  3. #708
    NBA sixth man of the year Indian guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
    As for PER, you're probably right, but that's because defense isn't measured in PER, but rebounding and assists are.
    What defense? Kobe wasn't playing much defense the 3 seasons prior to this one. None in fact in 04-05 and 06-07. LeBron's D this season is superior to any defense Kobe played between 04-07.

    Kobe fans need to admit that he has NEVER shown he can do what LeBron's done this season statistically and move on.

  4. #709
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by Indian guy
    This doesn't negate the fact that Kobe's never shown that he could put up numbers LeBron's putting up this season. Kobe had free reign to do whatever he wanted the 3 seasons prior to this one. Especially in 04-05 and 05-06.
    Better numbers don't make you a better player. And in my humble opinion someone who is a better scorer and defender is better than someone who is averaging more points, steals and blocks than that player. Funny as it is, this is the case with Bron and Kobe.

    Not way better. Cleveland is winning 65% of its games when LeBron plays.
    so the games Bron did not play don't count? Will they be replayed when Bron is healthy? Bron is not helping his team when he is sidelined by injury. Sucks for him, but that's the way it is. His team is winning only 57% of the games this season.


    Don't know what you're talking about. Gooden has played his best ball in Cleveland. Look up the numbers. Hughes sucks in Chicago too now. What do you make of that? Mind you, in the 7 games LeBron missed pretty much every Cavs' productoin went way down(look it up). Particularly their 2 best players(Z and Gibson) when he was out.
    Gooden and Hughes this year have played worse than last year. That's what I meant with regressing.


    Wally indeed has struggled. Wallace's numbers as a Cavalier are identical to what he was doing in Chicago, except with more ppg and a far better FG%. West's numbers have gone up considerably in every category. Most notably in ppg and FG%. Joe Smith's FG% has almost gone up by 10%.

    Looks like LeBron's doing a fine job improving his teammates. And he doesn't even have the help of a structured and championship-proven offense like the triangle(the real reason behind the improvement of LA's roleplayers) to make the game easier for his teammates.
    I didn't say Bron is not making his teammates better. But Gasol is traded to the Lakers and suddenly he's scoring 20 on 59% shooting instead of 19 on 50%. Fisher is traded to the Lakers and suddenly is scoring 12 on 44% instead of 10 on 38%. Trevor Ariza is traded to the Lakers mid-season and suddenly he's scoring 7 on 52% instead of 3 on 45%.
    Some of this has to do with the system, but most of it has to do with Kobe.

  5. #710
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by Indian guy
    What defense? Kobe wasn't playing much defense the 3 seasons prior to this one. None in fact in 04-05 and 06-07. LeBron's D this season is superior to any defense Kobe played between 04-07.

    Kobe fans need to admit that he has NEVER shown he can do what LeBron's done this season statistically and move on.
    I did on the post you quoted.

    But how is it important what you do statistically? Kobe's is playing just as well as Bron is this season.

    Do you agree that Kobe is a better scorer and defender? Those are the two most important aspects on the court.

  6. #711
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by KenneBell
    I'll tell what's surprising about PER, Magic Johnson's numbers look completely average using it which is ridiculous in my opinion.
    PER is notorious for underrating pass first PG's, so you can pretty much add a couple of points to his PER most years. Regardless, even considering that undervaluing of pass first PG's, Magic posted PER's several years which were better than what Kobe is posting this season.

    Volume scorers are actually the type of player whose statistical contributions are best captured by PER, so pointing to Magic's PER and using it as an indictment of the metric for Kobe's benefit is misguided.

  7. #712
    NBA sixth man of the year Indian guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
    Better numbers don't make you a better player.
    Who's arguing abt the better player? I thought the argument was abt whether Kobe can put up numbers that LeBron's doing this season. He has never shown that he can and it is not due to lack of opportunities.


    so the games Bron did not play don't count?
    Kobe fans have repeatedly pointed out that the games LeBron's missed shouldn't help him in the MVP discussion. Then why the hell should it count against him either? It's not his fault if his teammates suck and can't win a game when he's out. Let's just put those 7 games aside and stick with the facts.

    FACT: LeBron has won 65% of his games this season.

    Gooden and Hughes this year have played worse than last year. That's what I meant with regressing.
    So LeBron has gotten worse at "making his teammates better" this season compared to the previous 2 previous? That sounds ridiculous. LeBron's quite a bit better this season then ever before. Nonetheless, even if you do believe LeBron's play has had a negative impact on his teammates this season(and there's little to support it), it certainly hasn't shown up in the W/L column. Cleveland w/ LeBron this season is winning at a better clip than they've ever done since drafting him. Almost 4 games better from last season, when they had nowhere near the injury issues they have had this season.

    Also, Gooden and Hughes' regression this season still doesn't explain their play in Chicago - which is no better than what they were doing in Cleveland.

    I didn't say Bron is not making his teammates better.
    But you were trying to and failed miserably at it.

    But Gasol is traded to the Lakers and suddenly he's scoring 20 on 59% shooting instead of 19 on 50%.
    How's this any different than the huge FG% jump in Joe Smith's case? He's gone from 44% to 54%. And Joe's not even half the player Gasol is.

    Fisher is traded to the Lakers and suddenly is scoring 12 on 44% instead of 10 on 38%.
    West goes from averaging 6 ppg on 38% to 10 ppg on 44% in Cleveland.

    Trevor Ariza is traded to the Lakers mid-season and suddenly he's scoring 7 on 52% instead of 3 on 45%.
    Ben Wallace goes from averaging 5 on 37% to 6.5 on 48%.

    Some of this has to do with the system, but most of it has to do with Kobe.
    Except in Cleveland's case there is no system with a history featuring 9 championships and roleplayers flourishing. It's all LeBron.
    Last edited by Indian guy; 03-09-2008 at 05:18 PM.

  8. #713
    NBA sixth man of the year Indian guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five

    But how is it important what you do statistically? Kobe's is playing just as well as Bron is this season.
    No, he isn't. In fact, the first couple of months of the season Kobe's play was quite mediocre by his standards. LA was still rolling though, which is a testament to the talent and coaching he's surrounded with. Kobe's picked it up starting from the new year onwards. LeBron on the other has been doing it at a historical level ALL season. I see no comparison between the 2.

    btw, overall I believe Kobe's still the best player in the world. But LeBron's been better THIS season.

  9. #714
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    LeBron on the other has been doing it at a historical level ALL season.
    what has been historic all season long about lebrons season?

  10. #715
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by Indian guy
    Who's arguing abt the better player? I thought the argument was abt whether Kobe can put up numbers that LeBron's doing this season. He has never shown that he can and it is not due to lack of opportunities.
    You were trying to make it into that argument. I just said that Kobe is a better scorer and defender, you were responding by bringing up stats.


    Kobe fans have repeatedly pointed out that the games LeBron's missed shouldn't help him in the MVP discussion. Then why the hell should it count against him either? It's not his fault if his teammates suck and can't win a game when he's out. Let's just put those 7 games aside and stick with the facts.

    FACT: LeBron has won 65% of his games this season.
    FACT: you don't play for yourself and individual accolades, you play for your team to win as many games as possible. I couldn't care less how many games Bron has won, the important fact is how many games his team wins. And the Cavs are winning 57% of their games.


    So LeBron was better at "making his teammates better" the previous 2 seasons, is that what you're saying?
    Yep, that's what I'm saying.


    How's this any different than the huge FG% jump in Joe Smith's case? He's gone from 44% to 54%. And Joe's not even half the player Gasol is.

    West goes from averaging 6 ppg on 38% to 10 ppg on 44% in Cleveland.
    Joe Smith is actually scoring less points than he was in Chicago, and Delonte West is playing 13 more minutes. Fisher and Gasol are playing less minutes than they were for their former teams.

  11. #716
    And Another One Killer_Instinct's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by Indian guy
    No, he isn't. In fact, the first couple of months of the season Kobe's play was quite mediocre by his standards. LA was still rolling though, which is a testament to the talent and coaching he's surrounded with. Kobe's picked it up starting from the new year onwards. LeBron on the other has been doing it at a historical level ALL season. I see no comparison between the 2.

    btw, overall I believe Kobe's still the best player in the world. But LeBron's been better THIS season.

    I actually agree with that. Kobe was playing very poor the first half of the season. LBJ has outplayed him overall this season. Dosen't change the fact Kobe is the better player, but no doubt LBJ has been more impressive this season thus far.

  12. #717
    NBA sixth man of the year Indian guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by gts
    what has been historic all season long about lebrons season?
    I believe producing at a level that only MJ did 19 years ago is pretty damn historic. 31/8/8/2/1 + a PER of 30+ to go along with good D and a fine team record(when he plays).

    There's no denying it. LeBron's having a season for the ages.

  13. #718
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    No, he isn't. In fact, the first couple of months of the season Kobe's play was quite mediocre by his standards. LA was still rolling though, which is a testament to the talent and coaching he's surrounded with. Kobe's picked it up starting from the new year onwards. LeBron on the other has been doing it at a historical level ALL season. I see no comparison between the 2.

    btw, overall I believe Kobe's still the best player in the world. But LeBron's been better THIS season.
    I agree.

  14. #719
    The Paterfamilias RedBlackAttack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    I'm a little behind on the current conversation due to a lot of time actually spent working, recently (believe it or not).

    Anyway, I just wanted to comment on a few posts that were directed toward my comparison of jumpshots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
    Since when are those players you listed known for having great jumpers? Tony Parker and Dwyane Wade regularly get criticized for their lack of a jumper. Arenas is a volume shooter who's prone for shooting bad percentages. Antwan Jamison doesn't even have a midrange game.

    No surprise here. For Bron even to be in that kind of company is a bad sign.
    If I were to say that LeBron is a better jumpshooter than Dwyane Wade, Tony Parker, Arenas, or Jamison, I would be roundly criticized. You don't think so?

    Yet, he actually makes his jumpers more consistently than those guys. For the way people talk about LeBron's midrange game, I would expect his numbers to be down there with the worst jump shooting small forwards in the game... not better than some of the elite swingmen and point guards.

    I never said that any of those guys are great shooters... just that a lot of people would probably be surprised at LeBron's more consistent jumper in comparison, that's all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
    Damn good? no. Damn good is Dirk shooting 49% on jumpers, Rip Hamilton shooting 50%, Billups shooting 51%, Chris Paul shooting 49%.
    Those guys are excellent jump shooters. I didn't say LeBron's clutch jump shooting was 'excellent,' but damn good... a level below 'excellent.'

    If LeBron's jumpshot was as consistent as Rip Hamilton or Chris Paul or Dirk, it would be flat-out amazing and he would be, maybe the most unstoppable player ever.

    I think we all know that his jumpshot isn't on that level yet. Still... over 45% in the clutch is a good number for a guy whose main weapon is not the jumpshot.

  15. #720
    The Paterfamilias RedBlackAttack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
    Joe Smith is actually scoring less points than he was in Chicago, and Delonte West is playing 13 more minutes. Fisher and Gasol are playing less minutes than they were for their former teams.
    Everyone that plays with LeBron, with a couple of exceptions like Larry Hughes, see a dramatic increase in efficiency. Big Z's FG% from before he joined up with LeBron to his four and a half years with James shows an increase.

    Drew Gooden shot better from the floor with LeBron. Look at Damon Jones this year... yeah, it took a few years for him to get into his role on the team, but the guy is shooting almost 45% from beyond the arc.

    All you have to do is WATCH the Cavs to see that LeBron gets his teammates good, open shots. The new guys are just integrating themselves and LeBron is just beginning to learn how they play and where they are comfortable getting the ball.

    Their efficiency, if history is a judge, will rise just like the others.

    There has never been a question of LeBron entrusting his teammates and setting them up to succeed. In fact, during the first three years of his career, he was often criticized for being TOO unselfish and not having a 'killer instinct.'

    Now, he is a selfish player who doesn't know how to make his teammates better. It seems that the argument against LeBron changes as circumstances around the league change.

    Now that Kobe is on a good team, LeBron doesn't do enough to elevate his teammates' production. When Kobe was throwing up huge numbers, LeBron was a guy who was afraid to take on too much responsibility and criticized for relying on his teammates too much.


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