KG retires

[Hey Yo]

[Pointguard]

2008 NBA finals:

Paul Pierce 21.8 on 59% TS
Ray Allen 20.3 on 70% TS
Kevin Garnett 18.2 on 47% TS

Pierce was with Garnett every step of the way through the playoffs offensively, and the finals stats speak for themselves. But if you want to call that carrying the offense or being a much better closer, more power to you.

Interesting. Do you think Dirk carried the offense in either of his finals?

[ArbitraryWater]

Interesting. Do you think Dirk carried the offense in either of his finals?

Dirk averaged 26 ppg on 42% FG 54% TS, but the series is largely altered by his game 4 flu game.... outside of the flu game he shot 43.4% FG 55% TS, with advanced stats as these:

With Dirk on the floor:
Mavs .94 ppp - Heat .91 PPP

Without Dirk on the floor:
Mavs .48 PPP - Heat 1.26 PPP

[Pointguard]

Dirk averaged 26 ppg on 42% FG 54% TS, but the series is largely altered by his game 4 flu game.... outside of the flu game he shot 43.4% FG 55% TS, with advanced stats as these:

With Dirk on the floor:
Mavs .94 ppp - Heat .91 PPP

Without Dirk on the floor:
Mavs .48 PPP - Heat 1.26 PPP

Doesn't matter he played with Terry a whole lot.

The TS% which is what the poster used, was inferior to Terry's. And in the last four games of each finals, the discrepancy was huge in both finals. And Terry was very close in point production as well.

[ArbitraryWater]

Doesn't matter he played with Terry a whole lot.

The TS% which is what the poster used, was inferior to Terry's. And in the last four games of each finals, the discrepancy was huge in both finals. And Terry was very close in point production as well.

thanks for nitpicking the last 4 games lol, I was only refering to '11 anyway (flu game). Just because Terry had a high TS% himself, doesnt mean Dirk didnt carry the offense. He's the catalyst of it all.

[Dragonyeuw]

Interesting. Do you think Dirk carried the offense in either of his finals?

I'm sorry, I don't recall saying that he did, nor do I understand WTF that has do with my earlier post.

[aj1987]

Dirk averaged 26 ppg on 42% FG 54% TS, but the series is largely altered by his game 4 flu game.... outside of the flu game he shot 43.4% FG 55% TS, with advanced stats as these:

With Dirk on the floor:
Mavs .94 ppp - Heat .91 PPP

Without Dirk on the floor:
Mavs .48 PPP - Heat 1.26 PPP

That is because he predominantly played with the starting lineup and the best defenders on his team.

[Pointguard]

I'm sorry, I don't recall saying that he did, nor do I understand WTF that has do with my earlier post.

To be honest with you, I don't think you know a lot of the words you choose. In particular, you misused alpha now I'm seeing what you mean by "carry."

[bizil]

Among the top ten GOAT type PF's KG was the ONLY ONE who may have been pass first. When u look at KG's style of play, he looked to facilitate to start with. Hell he LITERALLY played point forward at times bringing up the rock. And he even played a ton of SF early in his career.

AND THEN he would get his 23-24 points a night with it. I NOTICED that KG would get more aggressive when it was time though. When he hit his mid 20's and ESPECIALLY in his epic MVP year, this was becoming apparent. Look at last three Minny playoff runs for proof.

But FRANKLY it's MORE COMMON to find pass first perimeter players who can be great scorers when its time. U have Bron, Big O, Magic, Isiah, CP3, Frazier, Payton, etc. Among big guys, KG is the ONLY ONE I can name off the top of my head who is more pass first but can be a great scorer. So I think it throws off people's judgement at times when looking at his scoring ability. It's best to view Ticket as a pass first player who ALSO had enough scoring ability to finish 3rd in the league in scoring in given years. AND finish with over 26,000 career points!

[Dragonyeuw]

To be honest with you, I don't think you know a lot of the words you choose. In particular, you misused alpha now I'm seeing what you mean by "carry."

Ah I see, I'm glad you're here to clear up how it should be used. Especially curious, upon your contention that Garnett was an alpha rebounder 3 or 4 times. Whatever the **** that means and more importantly, its complete irrelevance to the ongoing discussion about scoring.

[Pointguard]

thanks for nitpicking the last 4 games lol, I was only refering to '11 anyway (flu game). Just because Terry had a high TS% himself, doesnt mean Dirk didnt carry the offense. He's the catalyst of it all.

Yes, I like the words catalyst for it all because KG was that in 2008. The ball went into him and the offense sprang from there.

The last 4 games were the critical games - the first two didn't mean much at all in either series. You lames never give Terry credit for being super clutch. In critical games and in finishing up the series he's stellar. In 2011 the team went as Terry went: in the four wins Terry shot 30 for 24 for 555 FG%. while Dirk was 34/86 or 39%.

In general Terry shot better than Dirk from the line, from the field and from three point line in the clutch. If you guys hype up TS% so much why is there never talk of Terry? He shot 605 TS percentage for the whole series while Dirk shot 537 TS%. And Dirk guys use TS% aaaalllll the time. Why isn't Terry hyped up more.

In the previous finals overall, both score 22ppg (Dirk closer to 23ppg) but Terry has an advantage in TS% EFG% and FG% just as he did overall in 2011. Yet we never hear about Terry.

[Pointguard]

Ah I see, I'm glad you're here to clear up how it should be used. Especially curious, upon your contention that Garnett was an alpha rebounder 3 or 4 times. Whatever the **** that means and more importantly, its complete irrelevance to the ongoing discussion about scoring.

Alpha means you are the best at it in the league. There is only one Alpha. I think Malone might have been the only scoring leader of the PF's. Ironically KG is the only one of the others that was top three in scoring.

[Dragonyeuw]

Alpha means you are the best at it in the league. There is only one Alpha. I think Malone might have been the only scoring leader of the PF's. Ironically KG is the only one of the others that was top three in scoring.

So basically what you're saying is, the 'alpha' scorer in any given season or time would be the scoring champion. Of course, applying the term alpha like that in this discussion, or a basketball discussion in general, is bordering on silly, right as you may be about the literal meaning of the word. Especially because you're smart enough, clearly, to understand the context in which that term is being used here. As for KG being third in scoring, I guess it was good for him that year( 2004) that the top scorer put up 28, and the #2 put up 24. Not the highest of bars to clear compared to other years. Wouldn't do for him to post that average in 89, when Barkley's 28.3 ppg was only good for 4th, or Karl Malone coming second to MJ on 2-3 occasions putting up 29ppg. So clarity on 'KG is the only one of the others' in top 3 scoring would be nice. Michael Jordan was the only person stopping Karl Malone from being at least a 3 time scoring champion. All of the others, Dirk averaging 26+ a few times and Duncan 25+ppg in one of his MVP seasons, while not meeting the arbitrary mark of 'top 3' scorer that year, were more than KG ever sniffed.

But let's not waste time. We'll play this your way. Substitute the term 'alpha' with whatever phrase you feel more suitably applies to what is being discussed in terms of scoring ability. Premium scorer? Prime-time scorer? Whatever term suits your fancy, compared to guys like Dirk, Malone, Barkley, Duncan, in the playoffs....for the most part... he wasn't quite to that standard across his playoff career. Does his prime regular season stats match up nicely to those others? Sure. Playoffs particularly in the scoring dept outside a few runs? Not so much. Still a great player, regardless, as much as you're acting as though I'm calling him a scrub.

[Pointguard]

So basically what you're saying is, the 'alpha' scorer in any given season or time would be the scoring champion. Of course, applying the term alpha like that in this discussion, or a basketball discussion in general, is bordering on silly, right as you may be about the literal meaning of the word. Especially because you're smart enough, clearly, to understand the context in which that term is being used here.

No. I don't understand how you use it. Its somehow related to less than one basket per game in the mid 20's to you. When I try to show you that statistically it isn't true, you don't respond. So I don't know what you are talking about. And it's fair, because you don't respond.

Alpha is just a testosterone loaded phrase that's never used correctly.

As for KG being third in scoring, I guess it was good for him that year( 2004) that the top scorer put up 28, and the #2 put up 24. Not the highest of bars to clear compared to other years. Wouldn't do for him to post that average in 89, when Barkley's 28.3 ppg was only good for 4th, or Karl Malone coming second to MJ on 2-3 occasions putting up 29ppg. So clarity on 'KG is the only one of the others' in top 3 scoring would be nice. Michael Jordan was the only person stopping Karl Malone from being at least a 3 time scoring champion. All of the others, Dirk averaging 26+ a few times and Duncan 25+ppg in one of his MVP seasons, while not meeting the arbitrary mark of 'top 3' scorer that year, were more than KG ever sniffed.

We are in another thread talking about Karl Malone. His scoring to me was a level above the other PF's. His scoring is a marvel. Top three is a relative term. 28 ppg one year isn't the same in another year. But that's ok. I'm not claiming he was superior in scoring. I said "IRONICALLY" not as a point arguing KG's scoring prowess.

But let's not waste time. We'll play this your way. Substitute the term 'alpha' with whatever phrase you feel more suitably applies to what is being discussed in terms of scoring ability. Premium scorer? Prime-time scorer? Whatever term suits your fancy, compared to guys like Dirk, Malone, Barkley, Duncan, in the playoffs....for the most part... he wasn't quite to that standard. In no way does that lessen him as a player, especially how great he was across the board.

I don't have Malone in the tier of scorers as the rest. I guess you could have Dirk and Barkley above KG and Duncan if you draw a fine line. But I don't doubt that KG and Duncan could have scored like Barkley and Dirk did. But they have lead their teams in rebounds, scoring, steals, blocks, and assist as well as being the defensive anchors - it was just a matter of priorities. They are one basket away from Barkley and Dirk. Its ludicrous to say all of that wouldn't transfer to one basket per game.

[Hey Yo]