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Titles are overrated
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NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
looks like previous post (OP) is a book writer.
My take on the heading is when I look at the stat sheet I look at percentage , boards , as well as assists.
TO's and amount of time translates to points against that players team , so you might as well subtract 4 points that player made 2.
Steals and/or blocks tells me the guy is also active on D.
When I watch a game , I like to see how much a player is involved with his teammates(,)
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soundcloud.com/agua-1
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
I got shit when I stated Worthy was a better offensive player than Lebron.
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soundcloud.com/agua-1
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
MJ considered himself the more potent/dangerous scorer in 91 as per Kobe. Kobe said MJ and he would discuss who'd win in a one on one between Kobe's peak and MJ's 91 version.
Yet his stats didn't reflect MJ being the better scorer that season compared to previous seasons.
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Titles are overrated
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
Worthy isnt a better offensive player than Lebron though he had a better 22 feet and in halfcourt scoring skillset. A lot of players can say that though.
Lebrons edge is usually in the open court(less of an advantage over Worthy than people would think), with his outside shooting over previous era guys, and his playmaking when hes got the shooters teams usually keep these days.
He could have a better impact on your teams offense than Worthy but be less capable of making a single shot you need created under many circumstances.
You just hand them both the ball at 18 feet vs a set defense and say score Worthy will score a little more often than Lebron will id say. Lebron did have a while there where hed get a layup every time he put his head down though.
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NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
Let's get the goat stuff out of the way first:
MJ has the best offensive efficiency of any high-scoring perimeter player ever
That why he's goat - he did more (volume) of a good thing (efficiency) than anyone in history
But in general, you have to look at a player's:
1) offensive efficiency
2) whether teammates are playing near capacity (near their career highs)
3) whether the team playing a winning brand of ball
Let's look at a few examples:
- AI and Westbrook shoot poorly, teammates don't play to capacity, and the brand of ball isn't championship level [COLOR="Navy"](suboptimal PPG)[/COLOR]
- Curry had great efficiency, teammates play to capacity, and the team plays the best brand of ball [COLOR="Navy"](optimal PPG)[/COLOR]
- MJ had good efficiency, teammates played to capacity, and the team played the best brand of ball [COLOR="Navy"](near-optimal PPG)[/COLOR]
- Kobe had okay efficiency, teammates played to capacity, and the team played the best brand of ball [COLOR="Navy"](mostly-optimal PPG)[/COLOR]
- Lebron has good efficiency, teammates don't play to capacity and the team's brand of ball proved inferior to numerous teams in the championship [COLOR="Navy"](partially suboptimal PPG)[/COLOR]
- Harden has good efficiency and teammates play to capacity, but the brand of ball (low team assists) hasn't proven viable for a Finals run yet [COLOR="Navy"](partially-suboptimal PPG)[/COLOR]
Btw - kblaze, sdot and other lebron fans make these threads about shot attempts because they think lebron is an equal scorer to MJ, but MJ just shot more... Otherwise, why would they broach this topic at all??.. it makes no sense because lebron wouldn't even average 25 with mj's shot profile (mostly two's), and his efficiency would suck
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Last edited by 3ball; 03-23-2019 at 11:20 AM.
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Titles are overrated
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
Why would I talk about shot attempts at all if not for Lebron?
You realize people like Johnny Sic and I were having this discussion here before Lebron was in the NBA right? You dont think this came up with AI was taking 9-10 more shots a game than guys like Pierce? I distinctly remember Johnny and I talking about Antione Walker and Pierce as the best tandem outside Shaq/Kobe and my point being Walker just shot a lot but wasnt that good a scorer. Today its on my mind because Harden just took 40 shots and my cousin texted me about it.
You might wake up with Lebron on the mind....not everyone does. Take that shit elsewhere.
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Decent college freshman
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
How do you account for explosions from players called on to explode when you compare them to players who have no reason or chance to play that way?
I generally don't compare them.
Manu is a good example of this. He was a very efficient player and was highly productive per minute basis. But there is no chance in hell Manu could ever replicate what Iverson did for those Sixers team, he just wasn't that level of a shot creator and his body likely won't hold up.
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I go HAM
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
Another good topic by KBlaze, who is always dropping bangers. Thanks brother
It sort of reminds me a bit of the other that thread where I think you said, "How much talent can you hide? For example Harden as a 6th man on OkC compared to now."
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NBA All-star
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
I've always found the number of shot a player takes interesting, because people view it in a simplistic way, but it's never that simple.
Team composition being equal, player A takes 20 shots, B 15 shots. People say, "Well if player B just took five more shots than he would be just as good as a scorer as player A."
But then you ask yourself, why is it that year after year he doesn't? A lot of people can't get to that point.
When I first started studying Jordan's game on my VHS, the number one thing that I picked up was that made or missed, his ability to create a quality shot, even when double or triple teamed was so amazing.
Ask player B to try and take as many shots, not even getting double teamed as much, and the result is not going to be the same.
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Decent college freshman
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
Originally Posted by jstern
I've always found the number of shot a player takes interesting, because people view it in a simplistic way, but it's never that simple.
Team composition being equal, player A takes 20 shots, B 15 shots. People say, "Well if player B just took five more shots than he would be just as good as a scorer as player A."
But then you ask yourself, why is it that year after year he doesn't? A lot of people can't get to that point.
When I first started studying Jordan's game on my VHS, the number one thing that I picked up was that made or missed, his ability to create a quality shot, even when double or triple teamed was so amazing.
Ask player B to try and take as many shots, not even getting double teamed as much, and the result is not going to be the same.
Shot creation is a skill that gets underrated by fans. It is even worse now in the analytic era.
I have heard people say that Steph could do what Harden is currently doing and I am not sure about that. Steph is a good shot creator in his own right, but I don't think he is at Harden's level in that department. The only guys I think who are on James is level in that regard in recent memory are Kobe and AI.
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Bran Fam Member
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
Nique played on average/bad teams while Worthy had the GOAT PG feed him the ball for efficient looks.
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truth serum
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
Nice topic Op, I've always taken the attempts into consideration but it can't always be 1:1 comparison. I think its works best when discussing guys of similar talent levels and that play similar roles in the hierarchy of their team. So I wouldn't use it when looking into a role player vs a primary scorer. Or even an elite primary scorer vs an average one, but I suppose there are special cases that warrant it regardless of those conditions. One that has always intrigued me was older guys saying Russell could score pretty well if it had been his role on the Celtics, but they needed his defense more to be championship caliber.
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I go HAM
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
Originally Posted by ImKobe
Nique played on average/bad teams while Worthy had the GOAT PG feed him the ball for efficient looks.
Good, objective point coming from a Lakers fan.
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I go HAM
Re: When talking about scorers how do you account for how much a guy shoots?
I remember way back in the day my friend was a HUGE Allen Iverson and Steve Francis fan but when we'd look at the box score AI would drop his 30 but it would take him damn near 30 shots as well.
Was he efficient? Hell no
Was he the teams best scorer? Yes
But...
Could there have been a more balanced, efficient measure of attack? I think so
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