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Old 03-08-2009, 02:37 AM   #16
AllenIverson3
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdOverrated
Kobe's Roles for his team:

-Primary Scorer
-Primary Defender
-Primary go to player in 4th
-Primary playmaker

Duncan's Roles for team:

-Not a primary scorer (very well-balanced scoring)
-Bowen is the primary defender (Duncan anchors the paint, but Bowen denies penetration, guards best players on other team)
-Manu and Parker are the go to guys in the 4th (Duncan also has his moments, but he is not self-sufficient)
-Parker is the primary playmaker



80+ point games: Kobe 1, Duncan 0
70+ point games Kobe 1, Duncan 0
60+ point games: Kobe 4, Duncan 0
50+ point games: Kobe 24, Duncan 0
40+ point games: Kobe 100, Duncan 9

1999: Spurs beat Lakers 4-0
2001: Lakers beat Spurs 4-0
2002: Lakers beat Spurs 4-1
2003: Spurs beat Lakers 4-2
2004: Lakers beat Spurs 4-2
2008: Lakers beat Spurs 4-1

Head-to-Head Playoff series wins:
Kobe: 4
Duncan: 2


2008 Playoffs, Lakers 4, Spurs 1

Kobe (guard) 53% FG
Duncan (Bigman) 43% FG

Still hurts I see.

Duncan exposed overrated can't win without Manu and Tony.


Bryant cant win without Shaq...Simple as that...Now STFU Troll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-08-2009, 05:11 AM   #17
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

This is the honest truth.
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Old 03-08-2009, 09:15 AM   #18
jrong
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

Wow, I knew those performances were bad, but I didn't know how bad. PERs of 14? Not good at all. And considering Kobe and Bron are the only players on that list who were superstars at the time, that backs up my previous hunch that these were the worst two Finals perfomances by superstars in history.

Last edited by jrong : 03-08-2009 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 03-08-2009, 09:29 AM   #19
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrong
Wow, I knew those performances were bad, but I didn't know how bad. PERs of 14? Not good at all. And considering Kobe and Bron are the only players on that list who were superstars at the time, that backs up my previous hunch that these were the worst two Finals perfomances by superstars in history.
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Old 03-08-2009, 09:56 AM   #20
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

By the way, Kobe > Duncan.

Double Standard 1: Everyone harps on Kobe for playing with Shaq, yet no one harps on Duncan for having Manu, Parker, Bowen and other amazing players.
Shaq has played in the NBA 17 seasons, he only has 4 rings, he is not an automatic championship. In fact, he was not even in his physical prime during the threepeat championship run. He was significantly overweight almost every season during that run.

Double Standard 2: Duncan has played on a contending, elite team since he came into the NBA. Kobe has been rebuilding for 3 seasons in the 2000's (2005,2006,2007) and he may still end up with more rings in the decade.

Myth 1: Duncan has more impact for his team .

Kobe's Roles for his team:

-Primary Scorer
-Primary Defender
-Primary go to player in 4th
-Primary playmaker

Duncan's Roles for team:

-Not a primary scorer (very well-balanced scoring)
-Bowen is the primary defender (Duncan anchors the paint, but Bowen denies penetration, guards best players on other team)
-Manu and Parker are the go to guys in the 4th (Duncan also has his moments, but he is not self-sufficient)
-Parker is the primary playmaker

Myth 2: Duncan is more dominant than Kobe.

If you are going to call Duncan dominant, I guess we should call Kevin Garnett and Elton Brand dominant as well. Don't confuse dominance with consistency. The truth of the matter is Kobe is far more dominant than Timmy.

80+ point games: Kobe 1, Duncan 0
70+ point games Kobe 1, Duncan 0
60+ point games: Kobe 4, Duncan 0
50+ point games: Kobe 24, Duncan 0
40+ point games: Kobe 100, Duncan 9

January 14, 2002: Kobe score 56 points in 3 quarters. Memphis scores 59 in 3 quarters.

December 20, 2005: Kobe outscores the entire Dallas Mavericks team 62-61 at the end of the third quarter. This is the first and only time a player has outscored a team after 3 quarters.

Kobe Bryant is the only player who has can outscore an entire opposing team, you dont' get any more dominant than that. No one else has come close to matching Kobe in that regard - not Shaq, not Jordan and definately not Duncan.

Myth 3: Tim Duncan is the most fundamentally sound player in the NBA.

Tim Duncan's game has weaknessses - free throw shooting, three point shooting.
Kobe Bryant's game does not have any weaknesses. He is the most complete player in the game.

Kobe Bryant:

3 Championship (2000,2001,2002)
5 NBA Finals (2000,2001,2002,2004,2008)
0 NBA Finals MVP
2 Scoring Titles (2006, 2007)
1 Gold Medal (2008)
2 All-Star MVP (2001,2007)
1 NBA MVP (2008)
6 NBA All NBA 1st team
6 NBA All-Defensive 1st team
3 30+ ppg seasons
5 2000+ point seasons
1 SDC (1996)

Tim Duncan:

4 Championships (1999,2003,2005,2007)
4 NBA Finals (1999,2003,2005,2007)
3 Finals MVP (1999,2003, 2005)
0 Scoring Titles
0 Gold Medals
1 All-Star MVP (2004)
2 NBA MVP (2003,2004)
9 NBA All NBA 1st team
9 NBA All-Defensive 1st team
0 30 ppg seasons
1 2000+ point seasons


Head-to-Head playoff series: 6

1999: Spurs beat Lakers 4-0
2001: Lakers beat Spurs 4-0
2002: Lakers beat Spurs 4-1
2003: Spurs beat Lakers 4-2
2004: Lakers beat Spurs 4-2
2008: Lakers beat Spurs 4-1

Head-to-Head Playoff series wins:
Kobe: 4
Duncan: 2

What the Future Holds:

Lakers: By far the best team in the West, Kobe is only 30 and all his core is way younger than he is. He will play dominant basketball till age 35, and can play well even up till 37 or 38 because Bynum will be a force by then. That gives Kobe 7-8 more contending seasons.

Lakers core: Bryant 30, Odom 29, Gasol 27, Bynum 20
Cumulative Age: 106 years
Average Age: 26.5 years

Spurs: Spurs are still a great team, same experienced core that has carried them so far, but everyone knows they are done. Age has caught up with them.

Spurs core: Bowen 38, Duncan 32, Ginobili 31, Parker 26
Cumulative Age: 127 years
Average Age: 31.75 years

Lakers will likely win 2-3 more rings, while Spurs will most likely not win any more rings. Duncan is a great player, one of the premier power forwards of all-time and this article is not taking anything away from him. But Kobe is more dominant than Duncan, and make no mistake that he will finish with more rings when its all said and done.
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Old 03-08-2009, 10:07 AM   #21
Duncan21formvp
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ81
By the way, Kobe > Duncan.

Double Standard 1: Everyone harps on Kobe for playing with Shaq, yet no one harps on Duncan for having Manu, Parker, Bowen and other amazing players.
Shaq has played in the NBA 17 seasons, he only has 4 rings, he is not an automatic championship. In fact, he was not even in his physical prime during the threepeat championship run. He was significantly overweight almost every season during that run.

Double Standard 2: Duncan has played on a contending, elite team since he came into the NBA. Kobe has been rebuilding for 3 seasons in the 2000's (2005,2006,2007) and he may still end up with more rings in the decade.

Myth 1: Duncan has more impact for his team .

Kobe's Roles for his team:

-Primary Scorer
-Primary Defender
-Primary go to player in 4th
-Primary playmaker

Duncan's Roles for team:

-Not a primary scorer (very well-balanced scoring)
-Bowen is the primary defender (Duncan anchors the paint, but Bowen denies penetration, guards best players on other team)
-Manu and Parker are the go to guys in the 4th (Duncan also has his moments, but he is not self-sufficient)
-Parker is the primary playmaker

Myth 2: Duncan is more dominant than Kobe.

If you are going to call Duncan dominant, I guess we should call Kevin Garnett and Elton Brand dominant as well. Don't confuse dominance with consistency. The truth of the matter is Kobe is far more dominant than Timmy.

80+ point games: Kobe 1, Duncan 0
70+ point games Kobe 1, Duncan 0
60+ point games: Kobe 4, Duncan 0
50+ point games: Kobe 24, Duncan 0
40+ point games: Kobe 100, Duncan 9

January 14, 2002: Kobe score 56 points in 3 quarters. Memphis scores 59 in 3 quarters.

December 20, 2005: Kobe outscores the entire Dallas Mavericks team 62-61 at the end of the third quarter. This is the first and only time a player has outscored a team after 3 quarters.

Kobe Bryant is the only player who has can outscore an entire opposing team, you dont' get any more dominant than that. No one else has come close to matching Kobe in that regard - not Shaq, not Jordan and definately not Duncan.

Myth 3: Tim Duncan is the most fundamentally sound player in the NBA.

Tim Duncan's game has weaknessses - free throw shooting, three point shooting.
Kobe Bryant's game does not have any weaknesses. He is the most complete player in the game.

Kobe Bryant:

3 Championship (2000,2001,2002)
5 NBA Finals (2000,2001,2002,2004,2008)
0 NBA Finals MVP
2 Scoring Titles (2006, 2007)
1 Gold Medal (2008)
2 All-Star MVP (2001,2007)
1 NBA MVP (2008)
6 NBA All NBA 1st team
6 NBA All-Defensive 1st team
3 30+ ppg seasons
5 2000+ point seasons
1 SDC (1996)

Tim Duncan:

4 Championships (1999,2003,2005,2007)
4 NBA Finals (1999,2003,2005,2007)
3 Finals MVP (1999,2003, 2005)
0 Scoring Titles
0 Gold Medals
1 All-Star MVP (2004)
2 NBA MVP (2003,2004)
9 NBA All NBA 1st team
9 NBA All-Defensive 1st team
0 30 ppg seasons
1 2000+ point seasons


Head-to-Head playoff series: 6

1999: Spurs beat Lakers 4-0
2001: Lakers beat Spurs 4-0
2002: Lakers beat Spurs 4-1
2003: Spurs beat Lakers 4-2
2004: Lakers beat Spurs 4-2
2008: Lakers beat Spurs 4-1

Head-to-Head Playoff series wins:
Kobe: 4
Duncan: 2

What the Future Holds:

Lakers: By far the best team in the West, Kobe is only 30 and all his core is way younger than he is. He will play dominant basketball till age 35, and can play well even up till 37 or 38 because Bynum will be a force by then. That gives Kobe 7-8 more contending seasons.

Lakers core: Bryant 30, Odom 29, Gasol 27, Bynum 20
Cumulative Age: 106 years
Average Age: 26.5 years

Spurs: Spurs are still a great team, same experienced core that has carried them so far, but everyone knows they are done. Age has caught up with them.

Spurs core: Bowen 38, Duncan 32, Ginobili 31, Parker 26
Cumulative Age: 127 years
Average Age: 31.75 years

Lakers will likely win 2-3 more rings, while Spurs will most likely not win any more rings. Duncan is a great player, one of the premier power forwards of all-time and this article is not taking anything away from him. But Kobe is more dominant than Duncan, and make no mistake that he will finish with more rings when its all said and done.

Because Duncan made Manu and Parker great players. Tony was the 29th pick in the draft and Manu was the 57th pick.

Hell Shaq made Kobe a great player. Kobe was coming off the bench until Shaq turned him into a great player. Without Shaq, who knows if Kobe would have ever been a starter in this league.

I love how you insinuate how being dominant means the guy who has scored more? I guess that means Iverson is more dominant than Kobe as he is 2nd all time in playoff ppg, 3rd all time in season ppg and has more 50+ and 40+ games in the playoffs than Kobe even though he has played less games.

Conclusion Iverson>>>> Kobe

Oh and rings don't matter when you haven't won as the best player on the team.
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Old 03-08-2009, 10:25 AM   #22
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan21formvp
Because Duncan made Manu and Parker great players. Tony was the 29th pick in the draft and Manu was the 57th pick.

Hell Shaq made Kobe a great player. Kobe was coming off the bench until Shaq turned him into a great player. Without Shaq, who knows if Kobe would have ever been a starter in this league.
seriously man...
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Old 03-08-2009, 11:25 AM   #23
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ81
By the way, Kobe > Duncan.

U realized Kobe don't win enough games as the main man of Lakers?
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Old 03-08-2009, 11:32 AM   #24
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

Pressure is a very hard thing to deal with.
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Old 03-08-2009, 11:49 AM   #25
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ81
By the way, Kobe > Duncan.

No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ81
Double Standard 1: Everyone harps on Kobe for playing with Shaq, yet no one harps on Duncan for having Manu, Parker, Bowen and other amazing players.

Shaq was without a doubt LA's best player. And Duncan was without a doubt SA's best player. You can't compare their situations.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ81
Shaq has played in the NBA 17 seasons, he only has 4 rings, he is not an automatic championship. In fact, he was not even in his physical prime during the threepeat championship run. He was significantly overweight almost every season during that run.

Physical prime does not equal actual prime. There's no doubt his prime was when he was with the Lakers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ81
Duncan's Roles for team:

-Not a primary scorer (very well-balanced scoring)

But he was the focal point of their offense. I don't know how you can argue that fact, he drew double-teams and was a good and willing passer, the majority of the offense went through him

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ81
-Bowen is the primary defender (Duncan anchors the paint, but Bowen denies penetration, guards best players on other team)

So just because Bowen guarded the best players on the other team he was the primary defender ? I guess Tayshaun Prince was the best defender on the Pistons when they had Ben Wallace then ... Duncan was a without a doubt the best defender, a good defense always starts with your interior D.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ81
If you are going to call Duncan dominant, I guess we should call Kevin Garnett and Elton Brand dominant as well. Don't confuse dominance with consistency. The truth of the matter is Kobe is far more dominant than Timmy.

A more dominant scorer yeah sure. But overall ? Duncan was one of those rare players who could dominate a ball game without taking a shot. Kobe couldn't/can't. Hell, Duncan almost had a quadruple double in the Finals. Are you sure that's not being dominant ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ81
Tim Duncan's game has weaknessses - free throw shooting, three point shooting.

3 point shooting ? Are you freaking kidding me ?
And btw, shot selection is a fundamental skill, so Kobe does have a weakness.
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Old 03-08-2009, 11:51 AM   #26
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by 305Baller
Pressure is a very hard thing to deal with.

Maybe they need to consult Manu or MJ on how to deal with it?
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Old 03-08-2009, 11:53 AM   #27
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

LeBron was 22 lol. His second best player was out, and a rookie PG was starting. They had one of the least talented finals teams ever. They will do much better this year, might not win, but LeBron is 10x the player now than he was then.
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Old 03-08-2009, 11:55 AM   #28
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpfanz
Maybe they need to consult Manu or MJ on how to deal with it?

Maybe they do.
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Old 03-08-2009, 12:11 PM   #29
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan21formvp
I don't care if you average 100 points and 50 rpg and 50 apg in the season. If you don't show up in the finals then you aren't the best and not a big time performer.

Both guys ended up with 2 of the worst finals ever.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...ma nces-Worst





I don't believe in hype, I believe in actual results. Show me you are the best and show up in the finals. Don't shoot under 40% and get outplayed by the other teams guards like Billups, Iverson, Reggie Miller and Pierce and Allen did against Kobe and how Parker did to Lebron.

Kobe and Lebron are just not big time performers. You are only a big time performer once you do it in the finals and win finals mvp.

Your obviously bias, so if Kobe wins the title this year and his per is extremely high, u would still use the Piston game to prove he doesn't show up in the finals. Hello, Kobe has been to the finals many times and yet you only use his worst performance. A logical person would use the avg of all the final appearance or the last one because obviously players improve every year.
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Old 03-08-2009, 12:28 PM   #30
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Default Re: Kobe and Lebron don't show up in the finals and can't handle pressure.....

Why are we lumping Kobe together with LeBron? Kobe's had much more success in the finals than LeBron. LeBron's appeared in one finals and he had a horrible series. Kobe's had five finals appearances out of which one was as horrible as LeBron's but he was impressive during the 3 peat. One guy has zero wins in the finals (got swept) and the other guy has 15 wins in the finals (3 championships). That's the most important aspect of basketball, winning. So its kind of insulting to group them together...
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