#50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

[StateOfMind12]

Reggies inability to create his own shot on a regular basis is all you needed to defend him.

It's pretty impressive that a guy who can't create his own shot on a regular basis was still capable of averaging 25-30 ppg in the post-season. I think that just makes him even more valuable since he doesn't disrupt the flow of the offense and he was super efficient at getting his points.

dude wasnt scoring like 15-22 points most of his career or going 1-16 in the biggest game of his life because he was unguardable.

Ray went 0/13 and 3/14 in the biggest games of his life. How is that much better? Anyone can cherry pick games.

Like I said, Ray could do more than Reggie could, no one should deny this.

However, Ray was not necessarily more productive nor was he some all-around beast like Lebron James.

Ray was a better rebounder, passer, and defender than Reggie was but that doesn't necessarily mean Ray was actually good in this area, it just means he was better than Reggie at it. They are not correlated.

[Owl]

Regarding Reggie in general I'd say we're not quite in his range yet (ironic because of course Reggie had area code type range).

He was a very high accuracy, moderately high usage shooter who didn't create as many of his shots as teams number one options usually do. Combining usage with efficiency is valuable and perhaps ignored by some. He played well for a long time. Still he was nothing special in the other areas of his game.

It was not one time. And I assure you...if we go into Larry Brown quotes on reggie miller he wont come out looking good. Especially considering how much more likely a coach is to offer praise of his own players in public than to say what he really feels if its negative.

"A coach" yes, Larry Brown, no.

Brown was notorious for never being satisfied with his rosters (and agitating his GMs to make trades). And I think he criticised his stars, he certainly did with AI and I think there were occasional backhanded shots at Robinson, though he seems to speak highly of the Admiral nowadays.

If the McKey based point is Reggie wasn't as far above his teammates as people believe in retrospect (related arguments on the idea of Reggie being larger than our memories than he was considered at the time being: only 3 time 3rd team All-NBA, 5 time all-star and only twice got MVP votes neither time being close to a genuine candidate) then that might be fair. If it's that Derrick McKey had a career that is remotely comparable in value to that of Reggie Miller, I don't think you'll find too many people willing to buy what you're peddling.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Didn't look like Reggie had trouble creating his shot here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zWXkwv0am8

[Kblaze8855]

I didnt say Mckey was greater than Reggie or should be ranked higher. I said multiple HOf coaches said he was better than Reggie in his prime. Take it up with them.

Far as the game above...I dont feel a need to write most of this out again so:

He came into the casual fans attention for losing to the Knicks in dramatic fashion(his usual way of standing out...lose in dramatic fashion).

But nobody just ranked him as some great player. He wasnt some all NBA type year to year. Not even third team. Behind Eddie Jones, Terrell Brandon, Spre, and many others people act like hes better than in retrospect.

But its as if none of that happened. I watched the best Reggie there was. And it wasnt mid/late 90s pick your spots 1-2 big shots and lose Reggie. I remember when Reggie had a little athletic ability and might do his shitty little 2 hand dunk in traffic here and there. When he didnt just come off screens. When he got it one on one and made a quick move. Pullup jumper off the dribble reggie. Post you up fake one way fade the other, shoot 5 posessions in a row Reggie, "You will respect me..." Reggie talking shit.

But that Reggie turned into play my part Reggie and while he wasnt really shooting less he sure as hell wasnt the same focus off the offense. He had theb all maybe half as much and got plenty of plays run for him....that didnt end up in touches because he didnt get it when he wasnt open anymore.

And I dont know if its by chance or what but....when Reggie stopped being the focal point the Pacers started winning.

I saw more of young Reggie than I believe most here did...and I have seen that game. I had the entire game when I made a reggie miller video years ago.

Not being good at creating your own shot doesnt mean a borderline all star cant have big games. We really need to run down the list of guys who arent particularly good at creating good looks who had big nights?

Jason Richardson dropped like 50 a few years ago and he cant do the same move twice.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm not on either side really. I just don't think he had trouble creating his shot "consistently". Less consistently than say guys like MJ and Mitch? Ya, sure..but still a VERY cerebral scorer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFMNWOP-VKo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms9J2etJbDQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9X0KzuMeyM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g0iEOPwj9k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDBXcFVo2dU

Playoff seasons of 27ppg on 58% shooting and 64% from 3PT; 32ppg on 53% shooting and 53% 3PT; 26ppg on 48% shooting and 42% from 3PT; 24ppg on 45% shooting and 40% from 3PT; 31ppg on 46% shooting and 43% from 3PT; 24ppg on 50% shooting on 41% from 3PT.

Like another poster said..for someone that couldn't get his own shot "consistently", when it counted most, he sure had many scoring tears.

[Kblaze8855]

No he didnt. And putting the word "seasons" in bold doesnt mean it wasnt actually a 3 game series sweep. He averaged 25ppg on one playoff run that wasnt a first round loss. One. One time in 18 years did he put up 25ppg in the playoffs...when it wasnt a first round loss where the small number of games makes for high averages.

Alex English had 3 multiple series playoff runs over 25ppg and nobody gives a shit. Probably because it isnt that impressive for HOF guys who arent expected to do anything but score.

Its only worth mentioning for guys not much is really expected of. When Ben Gordon has 25ppg individual series(and he has) its noteworthy. When a guy in discussion for top 50 all time does it?

Its just trivia.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

But he did, unless you live in a fantasy land. Whether or not it was in a single-series was never my argument; he put up GREAT scoring numbers...in the playoffs.

[Kblaze8855]

If you find it "GREAT" when a guy who is expected to do nothing else scores 27ppg over 3 losses...fine. I cant tell you what the word great means. But I can tell you Michael Redd has done it in the playoffs over 5 games and shot 52% overall and 47% from 3 in doing it. And if he did it 5 times he doesnt stop being Michael Redd.

My great does not seem to be your great. Which is....great. Your right to be impressed by less than I am in regards to players on this level.

Me? I dont care any more about Reggies 27 a game while being swept than Dengs 26 a game on 58% shooting while sweeping the defending champs.

Its just...whatever. 3-5 games of whatever. Dana Barros could drop 30 over 3 games playoffs or otherwise.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If you find it "GREAT" when a guy who is expected to do nothing else scores 27ppg over 3 losses...fine.

But that was what we were debating. Scoring. The ability to create your own shot.

But I can tell you Michael Redd has done it in the playoffs over 5 games

Except, Reggie did it more than half of his playoff career. You're comparing what Michael Redd did in one series to Reggie's, what, 9 playoff seasons? Again, wtf?

[Kblaze8855]

And his PPG over 3 games does what?

You think I watched the 90s and 2000s and didnt think Reggie could score 27 over 3 games?

He could have done that in like 2004.

[Kblaze8855]

In fact...having checked...he had 28 and 33 in back to back games in 2005...in the playoffs...it was even vs the Celtics like the 27ppg series years earlier. He only had 12 and 7 points before and after those games...but he was still capable of it. he had 39 vs the Lakers in his final season.

These are not terribly difficult things to do for a HOF player who is a scorer and nothing else.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And his PPG over 3 games does what?

You think I watched the 90s and 2000s and didnt think Reggie could score 27 over 3 games?

He could have done that in like 2004.

Not all of those series were 3 games. Some a 7 game series, another run with a 10-14 game sample size.

What I would like to know is how one, who supposedly doesn't have the ability to create his shot "consistently"..can average sub ~25ppg on great efficiency against playoff defenses. How does that work?

[Kblaze8855]

You have watched the game before im sure.

There are players who arent great creating their own shot who scored 15-20 thousand points. I suspect Shawn Marion is around there. Hes had better scoring seasons than guys like Isiah Rider who were murderers one on one.

You dont need it explained how that happens. You didnt just start watching the game.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You have watched the game before im sure.

There are players who arent great creating their own shot who scored 15-20 thousand points. I suspect Shawn Marion is around there. Hes had better scoring seasons than guys like Isiah Rider who were murderers one on one.

You dont need it explained how that happens. You didnt just start watching the game.

Again though, this is several playoff seasons (and no, not just singular-series w/ a 3 game sample size). There's no way someone who had difficulty creating their shot on a consistent-basis could do what he did MULTIPLE playoff runs.

[Kblaze8855]

As I said...1 time in 18 or 19 years did he score 25ppg in the playoffs and not have it be a first round loss. Be it 3 games 5 or 6 or whatever. And yes...people who cant get their own shot on a high level can still score points. Not being able to make your own shot is relative. I suspect when I say it I mean the same thing Larry Brown meant when he said this:

"I know people are going to say Reggie didn't do this or that, but I've always said it's a team thing for him," said Brown. "He has trouble getting his own shot, beating people off the dribble. He's not what people make him out to be."

It doesnt mean hes Tyrus thomas(though ive seen him create his own shot as well). It means relative to what hes considered....he isnt a great shot producer.

Now.....ive been challenged on madden and kids are telling me a stinkbug has been sighted in the next room and I...have to look into that. enjoy your day.