Who do you respect more.. Kobe or Lance Armstrong?

[Budadiiii]

He won those races, but he won them cheating. Doesn't matter if everyone else was doing it. He boldly lied about being clean, got caught, and paid the price. Cylcing is a very dirty sport, and it needed to be cleaned up. It's not fair that anyone who has aspirations has to cheat to compete (put shit in their bodies). And that filters down to younger cyclists.

It's one thing if Lance just cheated like everyone else and said nothing. Then it would be like, oh well, he was like everyone else in the sport, but got caught. And it is against the rules. Just like in Track & Field when the occasional star gets busted there and is banned or has their medal(s) and record(s) stripped (Ben Johnson anyone).

But the backlash is over what he did to protect his image, not that he simply cheated like lots of others have done.

He's a guy out to get his. But no murderer or dare I say, rapist.

And there really isn't a comparable situation to his in the history of sports. His image was beyond sports. He was defending himself to uphold the livestrong empire. To uphold his reputation as a hero. Not just as simple as defending himself as an athlete/competitor.. insanely precarious situation to be in. Shit happened way too fast and the dude found himself in a situation he didn't know how to handle except lie his way out of it. Which he happened to be very good at... all he knows is winning. He thought he could "win" at lying too.

How could he not lie? It's just that the situation was so big, it really magnified his lies and painted him as the manipulative sociopath that he is. Which is fine.... at least he isn't a shitty father

[supercybergeek]

Depends on what is a worst crime, taking performance enhancing drugs or rape

[Kblaze8855]

He won those races, but he won them cheating. Doesn't matter if everyone else was doing it.

Yea...it kinda does.

If I get into a fight...and win with brass knuckles...am I cheating if the other guy has them too?

Cheating to me is an unfair advantage.

When the only people not already proven to cheat...are just suspected of cheating....im not calling the winner a cheater.

[Marchesk]

Yea...it kinda does.

If I get into a fight...and win with brass knuckles...am I cheating if the other guy has them too?

Cheating to me is an unfair advantage.

When the only people not already proven to cheat...are just suspected of cheating....im not calling the winner a cheater.

It's never been an acceptable excuse to do something just because everyone else is doing it. Try that next time a cop pulls you over (well officer, everyone else was going over the speed limit).

Lance broke the rules and paid the price. So have others. It's cheating, even if everyone else is cheating. If it wasn't, then why do they have to be sneaky about it? Why did Lance feel the need to lie?

Anyway, I only really care because Lance and many of his vocal supporters were so outspoken about how he was clean. Now that the whole world knows this is a lie, it's supposed to not be a big deal. Then why proclaim his innocence the whole time?

And as I stated from what I've heard and read, he not only lied, he went out of his way to ruin people. That's not acceptable. That makes him a bad person.

[iTare]

Rape is overrated.

[Trollsmasher]

Shaq > EPO

Armstrong also did not rape anyone

You could argue that Kobe got more balls though

[Kblaze8855]

Im talking competition not public perception, not losing endorsements, and not the law.

How do 30 people I know are doing the same thing look at me and call me a cheater?

This isnt a speeding ticket.

Its me...them...same drugs. Same mountain to climb.

Him lying about it to save face to an ignorant populace and keep money coming in has nothing to do with an unfair in sport advantage...which you know is the only thing im talking about.

[riseagainst]

You could argue that Kobe got more balls though

quite literally

[Marchesk]

Its me...them...same drugs. Same mountain to climb..

They're all cheating. So if they get caught, they pay the price for cheating. Simple as that. Lance won those races, but he also got caught. Same goes for anyone else. I understand the motivation for cheating like everyone else in that sport. I also understand why some people want it cleaned up. So they either legalize PEDs for cycling, or they crack down. They decided to crack down. Fact of the matter is that officially, PEDs are not acceptable in sports. Yeah, they're a bigger deal in some (baseball, track, cycling) than others (basketball, football). But they're not permitted. So if you get caught, you pay whatever penalty that sport has decided on. And you suffer the public backlash. That's the risk you take.

[Kblaze8855]

May be cheating a rule book....they arent cheating eachother....and if you dont gain an unfair advantage its just outsiders passing judgement.

The reason I wouldnt want to cheat is mostly because you cant really be proud of a victory you had an unfair advantage in.

When the field is level...its fair.

You can call it fair cheating if you like....but that kinda defeats the purpose of the word.

We dont need to go all "Look it up!" and start trading definitions....but cheating is pretty much defined by that unfair advantage.

Once thats out...we need a new word.

[Budadiiii]

They're all cheating. So if they get caught, they pay the price for cheating. Simple as that. Lance won those races, but he also got caught. Same goes for anyone else.

Technically, you're correct. But we can all sit here and say Lance is one of the greatest athletes ever, if not, THE best.

He's the MJ of cycling. Pristine physical gifts + insane drive to be the best + that polarizing aura that sucks you in.

The guy literally has a huge heart. Three times bigger than the average person. That is ****ing insane.

[iamgine]

LMAO you guys are talking about two completely different things.

Kblaze was saying if everyone cheated the same way, then Lance had beaten them fair and square since his cheating provided no advantage over other people.

Marchesk was saying anyone caught cheating should be punished.

[Kblaze8855]

Technically, you're correct.

Im not even sure of that really.

If cheating is to:

act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

Wouldnt that require the cheater to be doing something others arent?

If not....where is the advantage gained?

We would have to assume that some of the racers are clean.....ive heard from people in the sport being interviewed...that nobody they knew was clean.

It would only be cheating the people who are clean. And in that sport it seems like the only "clean" people are guys who didnt get caught yet.

[iamgine]

Yea...it kinda does.

If I get into a fight...and win with brass knuckles...am I cheating if the other guy has them too?

Cheating to me is an unfair advantage.

When the only people not already proven to cheat...are just suspected of cheating....im not calling the winner a cheater.

Although...cheating is really hard to quantify.

Not everyone cheating gets the same benefit.

If two person is cheating by given the answers to a test, the one with better memorization will get better score, even though the other person was smarter and may have scored higher had they both not given the answers.

I believe this principle also apply to the bodies and medicines. Two people drinking Red Bull, one is energized and focused, the other is energized but got a slight headache. Same Red Bull, different effect.

Then there's the issue of if Lance cheated harder. If he brought two big ass brass knuckles while his opponent only bring one small brass knuckles, that's a problem even though they're both cheating.

And from what I read, Lance always brought two big ass brass knuckles.

[Budadiiii]

Im not even sure of that really.

If cheating is to:



Wouldnt that require the cheater to be doing something others arent?

If not....where is the advantage gained?

We would have to assume that some of the racers are clean.....ive heard from people in the sport being interviewed...that nobody they knew was clean.

It would only be cheating the people who are clean. And in that sport it seems like the only "clean" people are guys who didnt get caught yet.

It's just semantics. I don't think of him as a cheat the same way you don't. But I refuse to believe EVERY single cyclist was doing what Lance was doing, to the extent that he was doing it, so "technically" he is a cheat.

Pretty sure he was doing it all... EPO, blood doping, tesosterone, HGH, Cortisone, etc....