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Old 09-09-2006, 03:21 PM   #136
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man wtf ...be serious...ALL those GOAT centers will look small and ridiculous against a 320 pound prime shaq (why is so hard to accept that)...
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Old 09-10-2006, 12:41 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by guybrush806
First Hakeem acomplished more then Shaq, check out the stats, the records. You are throwing out an untruth. He dominated Shaq in the postseason when Shaq was at his best, Shaq scored 29 points a game that year. Nobody can tell me shaq was just a rookie. He was better that year then in 2000. All he did in 2000 was gain weight. He was much more quicker and agile.
He dominated Robinson in his prime and Hakeem dominated Ewing. I think Hakeem has proved he is equal or greater in the dominating catagory. You never factor into the equation defense because it wasn't Shaq's strength yet you but Russell at number two. You hold defense that high yet you overlook Hakeem's strength. Remember he was just as good on Defense as offense.

But now it's laughable you put Shaq above Wilt because everything you have said is now a farce.
You said it's about how a player dominates in his time. That was your main ingredient for the goat list. You said it yourself.

Wilt dominated more then any other in his time. (like you said with Shaq, Wilt can't help he played in that time)

So by your own account you have to put Wilt ahead of Shaq...or else everything you have said is a joke.


You put team ahead of all else. Nothing wrong with that but that is a different list. This is a list of individual talent, in which case Shaq comes in below Wilt, Russell, Jabbar, Hakeem, and maybe even Moses Malone.


maybe you arent listening,

stats: dont mean squat.

records: dont mean squat.

ultimate goal of the NBA: ring.


shaq has 4, hakeem has 2, he didnt do squat when MJ was rolling and he didnt do squat when mj came back.

also wilt isnt on the top because you need a little more than 2 rings to be called the greatest of all.tme.

i put russell on the top because he was the cornerstone of the greatest dynasty in NBA history, this is all about the rings.

and wilt didnt dominate his era, wtf are you talking about ?? he put pretty stats but thats it, he got owned by boston and new york his entire career and only won 2 rings, russell is who dominated the 60's, not chamberlain.


the rockets winning a couple fluke rings because MJ wasnt in the league dont warrant olajuwon a place over shaq who won 3 in a row with LA, handing tim duncan ( a better player than ewing or robinson ever were) his asss in a plate pretty much every year.

as good as russell's team was they still won because of him, everybody and their mothers knows it.

as good as shaq's teams were they won because of him, not kobe bryant or horry or fisher or whoever, hence the MVPs.

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Old 09-10-2006, 03:01 AM   #138
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ok, you want stats ?? i'll give you stats,

shaq in the regular season: 26.3 points, 11.8 rebounds, 2.53 blocks, 2.8 assists, .580% compared to hakeem's 21.8 points, 11.1 rebounds, 3.08 blocks, 2.5 assists, .512%.

shaq in playoffs: 25.6 points, 12.2 rebounds, 2.2 blocks, 2.9 assists, .566% compared to hakeem's 25.9 points, 11.5 rebounds, 3.2 blocks and .528%.

shaq in finals: 28.9 points, 13.2 rebounds, 2.3 blocks, 3.5 assists, .602% compared to hakeems 27.5 points, 10.8 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 3.1 blocks, .498%.

so how on earthyou can bring up "stats" to say olajuwon is better when in fact the numbers say otherwise ??
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Old 09-10-2006, 03:17 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by lakers-city
ok, you want stats ?? i'll give you stats,

shaq in the regular season: 26.3 points, 11.8 rebounds, 2.53 blocks, 2.8 assists, .580% compared to hakeem's 21.8 points, 11.1 rebounds, 3.08 blocks, 2.5 assists, .512%.

shaq in playoffs: 25.6 points, 12.2 rebounds, 2.2 blocks, 2.9 assists, .566% compared to hakeem's 25.9 points, 11.5 rebounds, 3.2 blocks and .528%.

shaq in finals: 28.9 points, 13.2 rebounds, 2.3 blocks, 3.5 assists, .602% compared to hakeems 27.5 points, 10.8 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 3.1 blocks, .498%.

so how on earthyou can bring up "stats" to say olajuwon is better when in fact the numbers say otherwise ??

You said accomplishments. Hakeem has more of those.
Selected in 1996 as one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History
Is one of only eight players in NBA history with over 20,000 points and 12,000 rebounds in his career
Is the NBA s all-time leader with 3,830 career blocked shots
Passed Oscar Robertson for seventh on the NBAs all-time scoring list 12/16/02 vs. Washington with his 26,711th point
Passed Oscar Robertson for ninth on the NBA all-time minutes played list 3/7/02 at Dallas with 43,886 minutes
Named 1993-94 NBA MVP in 1994 and NBA Defensive Player of the Year in 1992-93 and 1993-94
Named to the All-NBA First Team six times (1986-87 to 1988-99, 1992-93, 1993-94, 1996-97), the All-NBA Second Team three times (1985-86, 1989-90, 1995-96) and the All-NBA Third Team three times (1990-91, 1994-95, 1998-99)
Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team five times (1986-87, 1987-88, 1989-90, 1992-93, 1993-94) and the All-Defensive Second Team four times (1984-85, 1990-91, 1995-96, 1996-97)
A member of the Houston Rockets' 1994 and 1995 back-to-back NBA champion teams, earning Finals MVP honors both seasons, and also appeared in the 1986 NBA Finals
Has appeared in 145 career NBA Playoff games, averaging 25.9 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 3.2 apg, 3.26 bpg and 1.69 spg
Has played in 12 NBA All-Star Games (1985-1990, 1992-1997), starting 8 times and averaging 9.8 ppg, 7.8 rpg and 1.92 bpg
Led the NBA in blocked shots twice (1989-90, 1992-93) and in rebounds twice (1988-89, 1989-90)
Received the NBA Sportsmanship Award for the Midwest Division in 1999-2000
Scored his 25,000th career point, recording a game-high 32 points, 8 rebounds, 4 steals, 3 assists and 3 blocked shots, against the Utah Jazz on 4/1/99
Blocked his 3,500th career shot, registering a team-high 20 points, 6 rebounds and 4 blocked shots, in an 84-75 win over the Denver Nuggets on 3/9/99
Became the first player in NBA history to accumulate both 2,000 blocks and 2,000 steals with a steal against Seattle on 11/20/99
Closed the 1997-98 season as the Rockets' all-time franchise leader in points, rebounds (12,199), blocked shots, steals (1,895) and ranks 3rd in assists (2,771)
Scored his 24,000th career point, recording 20 points, 5 rebounds and 4 assists, against the Minnesota Timberwolves on 2/26/98
Played in his 1,000th career game, posting 19 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists and 3 blocked shots, against the Washington Wizards on 2/24/98
Notched his 14th career triple-double, with 22 points, 16 rebounds and 10 assists, against the L.A. Clippers on 3/4/97
Shares the NBA Playoffs record for most blocks in a game with 10 against the L.A. Lakers in Game 2 of the 1990 Western Conference first round
Recorded the third quadruple-double in NBA history, with 18 points, 16 rebounds, 11 blocked shots and 10 assists, against the Milwaukee Bucks on 3/29/90
Shares the NBA Finals record for most blocks in a game with 8 against the Boston Celtics in Game 5 of the 1986 NBA Finals
Named to the 1984-85 NBA All-Rookie Team, was runner-up in the Rookie of the Year voting after averaging 20.6 ppg, 11.9 rpg and 2.68 bpg


Shaq: Started for the Eastern Conference in the 2005 All-Star Game
Named to the 2004-05 All NBA First Team
Led the league in field-goal percentage in 2004-05 (.601)
Named Player of the Month in March, 2005
Was named as a reserve to the Western Conference All-Star team and was named the 2004 All-Star Game MVP
Selected in 1996 as one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History
Three-time NBA Finals MVP after leading the Lakers to back-to-back-to-back NBA Finals victories (2000, 2001, 2002)
Voted the 1999-2000 Most Valuable Player (regular season) by media
Four-time All-NBA First Team selection (1997-98, 1999-2000, 2000-01, 2001-02), two-time All-NBA Second Team selection (1994-95, 1998-99) and three-time All-NBA Third Team selection (1993-94, 1995-96, 1996-97)
Two-time NBA All-Defensive Second Team selection (1999-2000, 2000-01)
Nine-time All-Star selection (1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002)
Won the 1999-2000 IBM Award, determined by a computerized rating that measures a player's overall contribution to a team
Named 1992-93 NBA Rookie of the Year, and to the NBA All-Rookie First Team, after averaging 23.4 ppg, 13.9 rpg and 3.53 bpg
Member of gold-medal winning U.S. Olympic team in Atlanta (1996) and World Championship team in Toronto (1994)

When it comes to stats. You aren't showing the whole picture. Need to also throw in steals, free throw % to get the all around feel for the centers. When you show that, they both come out very close with Hakeem edging him out.

Hakeem and Shaq are very close in offense. I give the edge to Hakeem because he could spread the court and his free throw shooting. Need to put that in.
And it's no contest with defense....you didn't put in steals with the stats.
Hakeem
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Old 09-10-2006, 03:31 PM   #140
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[quote=lakers-city]maybe you arent listening,

stats: dont mean squat.

records: dont mean squat.

ultimate goal of the NBA: ring.


Then Robert Horry is better then Shaq. He is better then anything Shaq has ever done.

You have based your argument on rings and that's it. I guess you would have to. I mean Riley was benching Shaq in the 4th quarter of the finals. Yet that ring means more then anything else.


That's your agruement.

Mine is that rings are very important. But it's how you win them that makes the difference. Shaq won another ring this year on Wade's team. He was an Horry type of helper. Shaq did a nice job but wasn't the type of player you need in the 4th quarter. Had Shaq been playing in the 4th quarter then they might not have won. Good call by Riley.

I give Wade a ton of credit for his ring because he didn't have any super stars on his team. He had a lot of great helpers. But Wade was the man in the 4th quarter when the games where on the line. He earned the MVP for a reason. You take Shaq off that team and they still have a great chance to win a championship. You take Wade off that team and there isn't a prayer.

Much like the 94 Rockets. Hakeem had some nice help on his team. But you take Hakeem off that team and that Rocket team has no chance of winning.

That is the difference in rings. They have a weight to each one.


...and darn if you didn't change your rules yet again to fit Shaq. You said that dominating your carreer was everything and then you change it to say it means nothing because I showed that Wild owns the record for dominating his era.

...and you always bring up Jordan...but when Hakeem was past his prime in 97. (Remember Hakeem had two knee operations and was never the same player. )

I don't Remember Shaq being able to get to the finals in 96-98. Hmmmm....maybe he just didn't have a good team around him at the time. Hey, it happens to them all. Very lucky for shaq he got a special player on his team like Kobe.
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Old 09-10-2006, 04:06 PM   #141
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Shaq has not, and never will, surpass The Dream.
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Old 09-10-2006, 09:42 PM   #142
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HORRY TYPE OF HELPER???? WAT THE F*CK ARE U TALKING???
WHEN THE HELL HORRY AVERAGED 20/10 AT 60%
he is the second guy...but he isnt a mere "role player" hes still a star
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Old 09-10-2006, 09:48 PM   #143
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Quote:
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Shaq has not, and never will, surpass The Dream.

nice point man...u are really convincing
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Old 09-10-2006, 10:32 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush806
...and darn if you didn't change your rules yet again to fit Shaq. You said that dominating your carreer was everything and then you change it to say it means nothing because I showed that Wild owns the record for dominating his era. .


when was stablished that wilt dominated his era ?? im i talking to myself here ?? i'll only say this. bill russell 11 rings in 13 seasons.wilt was a mere stat maker, his numbers didnt translate into winnings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush806
I don't Remember Shaq being able to get to the finals in 96-98. Hmmmm....maybe he just didn't have a good team around him at the time. Hey, it happens to them all. Very lucky for shaq he got a special player on his team like Kobe.


olajuwon got owned (by shaq) in the first round the year he had pippen and barkley, if youdont think pippen and barkley are enough help to at least put up a fight then........


in his era olajuwon won 2 rings because the best player in the league was gone, shaq won 3 in a row by being the best in the league, if you cant see the difference between a couple fluke rings in jordan's absence and 3 rings in a row by being the legit best in the league then i cant help you.
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Old 09-10-2006, 10:33 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Starbury4MVP
Shaq has not, and never will, surpass The Dream.

when olajuwon wins 3 in a row you can come back and talk to me, oh wait !! he already retired and only won 2 in jordan's absence, too bad....
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Old 09-21-2006, 09:08 PM   #146
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when olajuwon wins 3 in a row you can come back and talk to me, oh wait !! he already retired and only won 2 in jordan's absence, too bad....

That statement shows how little you know of basketball. I've defeated you on every point in the breakdown of Hakeem vs. Shaq.

I mean of course Shaq outplayed hakeem when Hakeem was past his prime. Pippen sucked when he was with Hakeem. Barkely was still decent, Hakeem was nothing close to what he used to be. You know that.
This year when Shaq gets outplayed by Yao Ming. And it will happen. Does that mean Yao has always been a better player then Shaq? By your views it would.

And on your Jordan point. I don't remember Shaq playing Jordan in the finals. Shaq was in his prime then should have taken the lakers to the Championship. Oh yeah....he needed Kobe to get better. I forgot Shaq isn't the type of player who can win without having another superstar on his team.
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Old 09-21-2006, 10:05 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by guybrush806
That statement shows how little you know of basketball. I've defeated you on every point in the breakdown of Hakeem vs. Shaq.

And on your Jordan point. I don't remember Shaq playing Jordan in the finals. Shaq was in his prime then should have taken the lakers to the Championship. Oh yeah....he needed Kobe to get better. I forgot Shaq isn't the type of player who can win without having another superstar on his team.

i wasnt talking about the finals, i was talking about the playoffs, shaq and jordan split their matchups 1-1 while hakeem is in house house thanking god MJ retired those 2 years so he could win a ring

you bring up stupid points like hakeem having more total points of course he has, he played 1238 games compared to shaq's 941, he obviously has more rebounds, points, etc. and you bring crap like the sportsmanship award ?? i'll bring what it matters: 4 rings, game over.

shaq is a better performer in the finals, which is the stage of the NBA when legends are born, so what if he never won without a superstar ? neither did russell nor wilt, or kareem, bird, MJ, or any legend, HO had drexler whose numbers were better all-around than kobe's in the finals.

and for you information pippen didnt suck in 99 in houston, he was still very good in the late of his career in portland and he was even better in houston.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush806
I mean of course Shaq outplayed hakeem when Hakeem was past his prime. Pippen sucked when he was with Hakeem. Barkely was still decent, Hakeem was nothing close to what he used to be. You know that.

so hakeem gets a free pass because shaq walked all over him because "he was past his prime" yet shaq doesnt get a free pass when hakeem outplayed when he was only in his 3rd year and had yet to hit his prime ?? it doesnt work both ways.

the team west built around shaq in LA was much, much better than the team orlando built around shaq in LA.

shaq in 2000>any hakeem.case closed, shaq surpased him as soon as he won a ring with a second team.

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Old 09-23-2006, 01:18 PM   #148
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using your ring theory....then you must admit Robert Horry is a better player then Shaq. More rings equals better player. I'm just using your example. Admit that and I'll agree with your ring theory.

Have no idea what the matchup would have been like with Hakeem vs. Jordan. We know what Hakeem vs. Shaq was like.

I agree with you. The finals are the biggest Stage. Hakeem on the biggest stage out played Shaq. He swept Shaq, out scored Shaq in every game. This was a Shaq who averaged 29 points a game in the regular season. Shaq wouldn't be as good again until 2000. Shaq gained more weight in 2000 but it wouldn't have helped him against an Hakeem in his prime. No way Shaq of 2000 could stop hakeem. (Shaq didn't get smarter or learn the game better...he gained weight...that's it!)
You bring up the Jordan argument, Jordan and Hakeem never met in the finals...yet you feel Jordan would have beaten Hakeem. Using that logic (with the knowledge Hakeem and Shaq did play in the finals)..... We can assume Hakeem would have always beaten and outscored Shaq in the finals. The highest level of basketball. Heck, Hakeem averaged 32 points a game against Shaq in the finals. Again I'm just using your theory and expanding it to it's logical conclusion.

I disagree about your pippen comment. You did watch those game right. He couldn't fit into the system of Houston. It's why Houston got rid of him. I know you must remember that. Pippen has nothing to do with this discussion though. Hakeem in 1999 was way over the hill. He had two knee surgeries. Hakeem was never the same player after 1996.
It would be like comparing Yao Ming and Shaq of today. Shaq isn't the same player.

I'll also agree with you that few superstars ever carried their team without another superstar on their team. That's what makes Hakeem's 94 championship so special. He took a team with a bunch of rookies and roll players and won. He didn't have a second option on the team. Remember Drexler wasn't on that team.
No way Shaq could have taken that team to the finals. Shaq doesn't have the tools to do so. His free throw shooting and lack of defense would have cost the team.

And I also agree with you that Shaq had better teams. The L.A. team was better then the Orlando team he was on. Heck, the Orlando team was better then the Houston team.

I agree with you. Shaq has always had better teams and better players around him then Hakeem. No disagreement there. If this discussion was about teams. Shaq's teams would win.

This is about the individual. It is my belief Hakeem is the better player. You have yet to create an arguement against that.
Your points are
1. Rings are the most important thing. In which case Robert Horry is a much better player then Shaq.
2. Shaq has had better teams. I agree with you. Hakeem never had the fortune to be surronded by such talented individuals over the course of his prime years. Pippen please, he was past his prime also. I'll give you an example of what I mean. You take Karl Malone (yes I know he is retired) of Today and have him play with 2007 version of Shaq and that team goes nowhere. Why? They are both past their prime. Wait a minute. Didn't they play on the same team in L.A. What happened there? Why didn't Shaq win a championship that year. Hell, Shaq was in his prime that year.

""so hakeem gets a free pass because shaq walked all over him because "he was past his prime" yet shaq doesnt get a free pass when hakeem outplayed when he was only in his 3rd year and had yet to hit his prime ?? it doesnt work both ways.""
.....What???? Are you on drugs? Shaq had his best year that year. He scored 29 points a game during the regular season. I liked Shaq more that year then 2000. Shaq didn't learn more, he gained weight. He still couldn't hit a 10 foot jumper. Still couldn't hit free throws. He defense wasn't as good.
Hakeem played one of the best versions of Shaq that year and beat him.
Shaq didn't get smarter or better. I didn't see Shaq learn more moves. Look at the stats...he didn't get better. He stayed the same. (which was awesome...shaq is a hell of a player) Shaq's team get better. (agreeing with you argument...and that's what helped him win)

There is no written rule of when a player hit's his peak. Example is baseball...Howard of the Phillies has 58 home runs in his second season.
Steve Francis was at his best his third season and never has been as good.
The Shaq that Hakeem faced in 95 was as good as Shaq has been. There is no reason to think a 2000 version of Shaq would have outplayed an Hakeem in his prime. That is all pure speculation and nothing to back it up.


I'm sorry but Hakeem is still on top of Shaq on the goat list. You have yet to make a valid argument to adjust my views.
Your a fan of Shaq and that bias carries a lot of weight to your views. I'm alright with that.
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Old 09-23-2006, 03:53 PM   #149
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so many words to talk every same bullsh*t ...
p*ssy shaq haters (if u ask ..is SAGANA DIOP better than Shaq?they will say ...OF COURSE, Shaq is arrogant, bad work ethic and cant hit free throws!!!!)...watever im tired to try explain

i give up

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Old 09-23-2006, 06:51 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by guybrush806
using your ring theory....then you must admit Robert Horry is a better player then Shaq. More rings equals better player. I'm just using your example. Admit that and I'll agree with your ring theory.

LOL, its typical to use the horry example when trying to discredit the value of rings but it wont work here. rings are what you play for, and dont bring up horry, shaq's value in those rings was 100 times more than horry's. comparing a bench player like horry and shaq is wrong, but when we compare two superstars like shaq and hakeem with similar stats, of the same position then the rings obviously hold a lot of water, because thats what you play for, and dont bring the lame excuse of suporting cast because hakeem had one hell of a suporting cast.


I agree with you. The finals are the biggest Stage. Hakeem on the biggest stage out played Shaq. He swept Shaq, out scored Shaq in every game. This was a Shaq who averaged 29 points a game in the regular season. Shaq wouldn't be as good again until 2000. Shaq gained more weight in 2000 but it wouldn't have helped him against an Hakeem in his prime. No way Shaq of 2000 could stop hakeem. (Shaq didn't get smarter or learn the game better...he gained weight...that's it!)

and no way hakeem could stop shaq from 2000, they both would have walked all over each other on offense and it would have been up to the role players to beat each other. and shaq did improve his offensive arsenal, he developed the finger roll and the baseline hookshot he also became a much better passer, dont argue with me here, he played on my team and it was me who watched him play 75 games a year plus the playoffs, not you.


You bring up the Jordan argument, Jordan and Hakeem never met in the finals...yet you feel Jordan would have beaten Hakeem. Using that logic (with the knowledge Hakeem and Shaq did play in the finals)..... We can assume Hakeem would have always beaten and outscored Shaq in the finals. The highest level of basketball. Heck, Hakeem averaged 32 points a game against Shaq in the finals. Again I'm just using your theory and expanding it to it's logical conclusion.

I disagree about your pippen comment. You did watch those game right. He couldn't fit into the system of Houston. It's why Houston got rid of him. I know you must remember that. Pippen has nothing to do with this discussion though. Hakeem in 1999 was way over the hill. He had two knee surgeries. Hakeem was never the same player after 1996.
It would be like comparing Yao Ming and Shaq of today. Shaq isn't the same player.

i agree here, but having pippen and barkley and losing in the first round to a mediocre laker team (before phil jackson) still is a failure.

I'll also agree with you that few superstars ever carried their team without another superstar on their team. That's what makes Hakeem's 94 championship so special. He took a team with a bunch of rookies and roll players and won. He didn't have a second option on the team. Remember Drexler wasn't on that team.
No way Shaq could have taken that team to the finals. Shaq doesn't have the tools to do so. His free throw shooting and lack of defense would have cost the team.

we agree about that, but shaq never played without a superstar so we'll never know if he could have lead his team to the finals on his own, you saying "No way Shaq could have taken that team to the finals" its only your opinion, not an irrefutable fact.

And I also agree with you that Shaq had better teams. The L.A. team was better then the Orlando team he was on. Heck, the Orlando team was better then the Houston team.

but the magic players were chokers, dont forget that being clutch is critical in the finals, there is no way the magic was gonna win a ring with bums like nick anderson missing 4 free throws in a row. the rockets were as clutch as they come, hence the nickname "clutch city"


This is about the individual. It is my belief Hakeem is the better player. You have yet to create an arguement against that.
Your points are
1. Rings are the most important thing. In which case Robert Horry is a much better player then Shaq.


wrong, horry never scored 35 a game or grabbed 15 boards a game, he never won MVP either, we are comparing superstars so rings matter (i never said rings were the ONLY thing that matters, but they obviously do, thats why wannabes like malone, barkley and ewing will never be considered the GOAT, only some of the best ever who could never got it done.



2. Shaq has had better teams. I agree with you. Hakeem never had the fortune to be surronded by such talented individuals over the course of his prime years. Pippen please, he was past his prime also. I'll give you an example of what I mean. You take Karl Malone (yes I know he is retired) of Today and have him play with 2007 version of Shaq and that team goes nowhere. Why? They are both past their prime. Wait a minute. Didn't they play on the same team in L.A. What happened there? Why didn't Shaq win a championship that year. Hell, Shaq was in his prime that year.

because kobe ballhog bryant shot 35% and never passed the ball to shaq, having a superstar like kobe has its good things and bad also, hakeem never had to deal with egos like kobe bryant. also pippen wasnt past his prime in 1999, he was only 33, and he made portland an inmediate title contendor next year meaning that he could obviously still play very well

""so hakeem gets a free pass because shaq walked all over him because "he was past his prime" yet shaq doesnt get a free pass when hakeem outplayed when he was only in his 3rd year and had yet to hit his prime ?? it doesnt work both ways.""
.....What???? Are you on drugs? Shaq had his best year that year. He scored 29 points a game during the regular season. I liked Shaq more that year then 2000. Shaq didn't learn more, he gained weight. He still couldn't hit a 10 foot jumper. Still couldn't hit free throws. He defense wasn't as good.
Hakeem played one of the best versions of Shaq that year and beat him.
Shaq didn't get smarter or better. I didn't see Shaq learn more moves. Look at the stats...he didn't get better. He stayed the same. (which was awesome...shaq is a hell of a player) Shaq's team get better. (agreeing with you argument...and that's what helped him win)

There is no written rule of when a player hit's his peak. Example is baseball...Howard of the Phillies has 58 home runs in his second season.
Steve Francis was at his best his third season and never has been as good.
The Shaq that Hakeem faced in 95 was as good as Shaq has been. There is no reason to think a 2000 version of Shaq would have outplayed an Hakeem in his prime. That is all pure speculation and nothing to back it up.

im not saying shaq would outplay hakeem, but you are basing your conclusions in the fact that hakeem is better because houston beat orlando, so i could say that shaq is also better because los angeles would destroy houston.

I'm sorry but Hakeem is still on top of Shaq on the goat list.

thats an opinion, your opinion , not a fact, just like MJ being the GOAT is only an OPINION, not a fact, you can sell a strong case about magic, bird, kareem and russell as the GOAT as well.


You have yet to make a valid argument to adjust my views.

im not trying to adjust your views, im just expressing mine.

Your a fan of Shaq and that bias carries a lot of weight to your views. I'm alright with that.

and you arent biased yourself ?? you are obviously a fan of hakeem and im alright with that too, both were top 10 centers of alltime and any of the two could easily be considered the best ever (center) but hakeem being better than shaq aint a fact, its an opinion.

......

Last edited by lakers-city : 09-23-2006 at 06:58 PM.
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