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Old 09-30-2006, 10:31 PM   #151
BlockShot
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i think we should show the dream some more respect...all this talk bout his "fluke rings" thats bs and you all know it...hakeem won in the absence of jordan...BIG deal was it his fault jordan retired was it his fault he won the whole thing was it his fault he destoryed the legue when jordan was gone??? whos to say he wouldn have done the same thing if jordan was there
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Old 09-30-2006, 10:53 PM   #152
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jordan is to say he wouldnt do the same if he was there, no one beat MJ when he was in full shape with chicago after 91, houston would be no exception.
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Old 10-04-2006, 06:54 PM   #153
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one thing that will forever separate hakeem from the rest.....2 quadrupal doubles in a month....that my friends is greatness
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Old 10-29-2006, 11:08 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush806
That statement shows how little you know of basketball. I've defeated you on every point in the breakdown of Hakeem vs. Shaq.

I mean of course Shaq outplayed hakeem when Hakeem was past his prime. Pippen sucked when he was with Hakeem. Barkely was still decent, Hakeem was nothing close to what he used to be. You know that.
This year when Shaq gets outplayed by Yao Ming. And it will happen. Does that mean Yao has always been a better player then Shaq? By your views it would.

And on your Jordan point. I don't remember Shaq playing Jordan in the finals. Shaq was in his prime then should have taken the lakers to the Championship. Oh yeah....he needed Kobe to get better. I forgot Shaq isn't the type of player who can win without having another superstar on his team.
I agree w/ you except the last statement and w/o stats you cant back yourself up,
YES, Shaq need another superstar to helped him win [ Who wouldnt?? ]
Can Michael win Rings w/o Pippen and Rodman.
Can Magic and Birds win Rings by himself.
*Great player alone can't win.....

And you can't compares great player w/ only stats, but W/O stats and wins you cant be great player.

Last, I strongly believe Wilt was/is the GREATEST CENTER of all time and w/ Russell is one of the greatest.
*Wilts maybe the "GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME, if you count the untouching records 100Pts a single game and won 33 straight games in a regular season"
*Russells 11 Rings, 14,522Pts, and 21,620Rebs

Shaq falls along with Wilt and Russell [ Cuz his Rings, Stats, and Winnings included dominates the NBA in his time.
He brought 3 diff teams to NBA Finals, 4 NBA Finals, 3 NBA Finals MVPs, NBA MVP, 2 NBA All-Star MVPs, and he helped teams winning.... ]
*Western Con. won the NBA All-Star when Shaq w/ the Lakers
Now Shaq w/ the Heat.....Eastern Con won the NBA All-Star back-to-back.

Last edited by ocv : 10-29-2006 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 10-30-2006, 12:39 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by rzp
HORRY TYPE OF HELPER???? WAT THE F*CK ARE U TALKING???
WHEN THE HELL HORRY AVERAGED 20/10 AT 60%
he is the second guy...but he isnt a mere "role player" hes still a star

Actually, he played pretty horribly in aspects in the finals.

He averaged 35 minutes, 15.7 points on 66% shooting and 11 rebounds. That's alright I guess, but not star material and when you look at his other stats it gets even worse. He only averaged 1.4 blocks, 32% free throw shooting and had 3.4 turnovers a game.

However, although Hakeem is one of my favourite players and I don't particularly like Shaq, I'd still have to just take him over Hakeem because I believe he's been better over his career.
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Old 11-12-2006, 03:27 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
Wow, so, because Wade, a great coach, and a great collection of roleplayers gave him another title that means he was a better player in his prime? that makes sense.
So since when did you start considering "Antoine Walker" and "Jason Williams" as great roleplayers? I'm sick and tired of casual fans like you trying to degrade what Shaq has accomplished. Antoine Walker and Jason Williams are easily two of the most hated players in this board and I've seen numerous posts saying "Walker is a streaky shooter who's always off lol", "Jason Williams needs to go back to school to learn some fundamentals" and now all these idiotic posters are saying "who can't win the championship like guys like Walker and Williams as his sidekick?".

Prime Shaq is way better than prime Hakeem and it's not even debatable. Hakeem is on par as Ewing or Robinson while Shaq is up there with Kareem and Wilt.

Last edited by Human Error : 11-12-2006 at 05:55 AM.
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Old 11-12-2006, 11:00 AM   #157
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[quote=ekHowever, although Hakeem is one of my favourite players and I don't particularly like Shaq, I'd still have to just take him over Hakeem because I believe he's been better over his career.[/QUOTE]

Hakeem and Shaq have the same stats in the playoffs and if you take their numbers in their 10 prime years they are very close. Hakeem being the much better defense player with steals, rebounds, block shots. Shaq being the better scorer but he would suffer in the 4th quarters with his free throw shooting. That's one of the things that killed him against Hakeem in 95.

Remember Shaq had one of his best years in 95. He's next best year would be in 2000. I'm still one to believe the extra weight hurt Shaq. He wasn't as quick.

As for as the new centers on the block. Look out for Yao Ming. He looks like he will be coming into his own. Doesn't have the quickness of Hakeem (or even Shaq) but does have a soft touch from 10 feet out. 85% free throw shooter, and his size is hard to guard.
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Old 11-12-2006, 11:25 AM   #158
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"Prime Shaq is way better than prime Hakeem and it's not even debatable. Hakeem is on par as Ewing or Robinson while Shaq is up there with Kareem and Wilt."

I remember Hakeem going head to head with all of the centers you mentioned (with the exception of Wilt) and beating them in key playoff series.

Hakeem outplayed and outscored Shaq in a finals sweep in 95. Hakeem was 32 years old against a Shaq that was in his prime. You can't tell me he wasn't. Look at Shaq's numbers that season. He had one of his best years. Wouldn't have a better year until 2000. Shaq never grew from 95. He never developed a 10 foot jumper, never better at the line and he was much slower.
Don't need to talk about what Hakeem did to David Robinson.

Hakeem and Shaq have almost equal numbers in the playoffs.
For someone to say Shaq is head and shoulders above Hakeem hasn't beeen watching basketball since 1980. Shaq and Hakeem are so close. They both dominated the games in different ways.
I go with the dream, it's my belief Hakeem of 95 would have outplayed Shaq of 2000. 32 year old dream vs. 28 year old Shaq. It would have been awesome. I give the edge to Hakeem for these reasons. Free throw shooting would be a huge deal in this match up with the edge going to Hakeem.
Hakeem could spread the floor and hit 10 foot jumpers on Shaq all day. Shaq would be forced to cover Hakeem on the wing, this would lead Shaq to foul trouble with hakeem's quickness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uX...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDBYWCwAN2o

Links to show what I mean. This would lead to Shaq foul trouble in the fourth quarter. Shaq's free throw shooting in the fourth quarter would also hurt his team.
It would be a close game (and remember, I think Shaq was better in 95 then in 2000. I never believed the extra weight helped him)
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Old 11-12-2006, 11:30 AM   #159
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"Prime Shaq is way better than prime Hakeem and it's not even debatable. Hakeem is on par as Ewing or Robinson while Shaq is up there with Kareem and Wilt."

I remember Hakeem going head to head with all of the centers you mentioned (with the exception of Wilt) and beating them in key playoff series.

Hakeem outplayed and outscored Shaq in a finals sweep in 95. Hakeem was 32 years old against a Shaq that was in his prime. You can't tell me he wasn't. Look at Shaq's numbers that season. He had one of his best years. Wouldn't have a better year until 2000. Shaq never grew from 95. He never developed a 10 foot jumper, never better at the line and he was much slower.
Don't need to talk about what Hakeem did to David Robinson.

Hakeem and Shaq have almost equal numbers in the playoffs.
For someone to say Shaq is head and shoulders above Hakeem hasn't beeen watching basketball since 1980. Shaq and Hakeem are so close. They both dominated the games in different ways.
I go with the dream, it's my belief Hakeem of 95 would have outplayed Shaq of 2000. 32 year old dream vs. 28 year old Shaq. It would have been awesome. I give the edge to Hakeem for these reasons. Free throw shooting would be a huge deal in this match up with the edge going to Hakeem.
Hakeem could spread the floor and hit 10 foot jumpers on Shaq all day. Shaq would be forced to cover Hakeem on the wing, this would lead Shaq to foul trouble with hakeem's quickness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uX...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDBYWCwAN2o

Links to show what I mean. This would lead to Shaq foul trouble in the fourth quarter. Shaq's free throw shooting in the fourth quarter would also hurt his team.
I think Hakeem would still have the edge in experience. Hakeem already playing huge games in College and Pros would also help a little in this matchup.
And...Shaq grew up as a Huge Hakeem fan. Hakeem was his idle. I think Shaq's game always suffered a little against Hakeem because of this.
It would be a close game (and remember, I think Shaq was better in 95 then in 2000. I never believed the extra weight helped him)

Now...let's hear the other side of the argument. Why would a 2000 Shaq beat a 95 Hakeem?
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Old 11-12-2006, 02:29 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocv
I agree w/ you except the last statement and w/o stats you cant back yourself up,
YES, Shaq need another superstar to helped him win [ Who wouldnt?? ]
Can Michael win Rings w/o Pippen and Rodman.
Can Magic and Birds win Rings by himself.
*Great player alone can't win.....

And you can't compares great player w/ only stats, but W/O stats and wins you cant be great player.

Last, I strongly believe Wilt was/is the GREATEST CENTER of all time and w/ Russell is one of the greatest.
*Wilts maybe the "GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME, if you count the untouching records 100Pts a single game and won 33 straight games in a regular season"
*Russells 11 Rings, 14,522Pts, and 21,620Rebs

Shaq falls along with Wilt and Russell [ Cuz his Rings, Stats, and Winnings included dominates the NBA in his time.
He brought 3 diff teams to NBA Finals, 4 NBA Finals, 3 NBA Finals MVPs, NBA MVP, 2 NBA All-Star MVPs, and he helped teams winning.... ]
*Western Con. won the NBA All-Star when Shaq w/ the Lakers
Now Shaq w/ the Heat.....Eastern Con won the NBA All-Star back-to-back.


I was comparing Hakeem to Shaq. The comparisn was with teammates Shaq has been blessed to have around him compared to Hakeem.
I centered on the 94 playoff run of the Rockets where Hakeem didn't have another true superstar on his team. (Drexler wasn't on that team...he came along in 95) My belief is Shaq couldn't have taken that Rockets team to the finals. Shaq is an amazing player but lacks certain skills needed to take a team by himself. He's free throw shooting would have killed the rockets. He wouldn't have been quick enough to block John Starks 3 pointer to win game 6. Shaq has never had a 10 foot jump shoot to spread the floor and allow cutters to the basket.

If you put Shaq with Russell and Wilt, you have to also include Hakeem. Remember Hakeem outplayed and outscored a Shaq in his prime. Hakeem was 32 when he put those numbers up against Shaq. Shaq at 23 had one of his best (if not the best year of his career) Don't let anyone fool you. Shaq was a better player in 1995 then 2000. Look at the stats. Yes he gained weight, but that also slowed him down. (and that weight is what has cut Shaq's career short. Shaq never learned more moves or developed a better outside game. At 34 I don't think Shaq will average above 15 points again. Hakeem was still solid at 36 but knee injuries cut his game back at the end of 1996.

What I'm saying is Hakeem went up against a great opponent in Shaq in 1995, at the highest level and outplayed him. That is huge. Anyone who says Shaq (version 2000) would have killed Hakeem in his prime need only to look at their head to head maches at the highest level of the game to judge what would have happened.
A Shaq (version 2000) vs. Hakeem (version 95) and the numbers would look almost exactly the same. Shaq's new weight would have kept him from running with Hakeem. Hakeem would have shot 10 foot jumpers and if Shaq went outside to guard Hakeem. He would get into foul trouble because of Hakeem's quickness.

Shaq would get his points but Hakeem would also get his. Bother players average 26 points a game in the playoffs. Nobody is going to stop either one of them. It's the intagibles that Hakeem brought that would be the differece maker in the games. Block shots, steals, quick defense, and free throw shooting late in the game. This is why put Hakeem ahead of Shaq
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Old 11-12-2006, 02:39 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakers-city
jordan is to say he wouldnt do the same if he was there, no one beat MJ when he was in full shape with chicago after 91, houston would be no exception.

That's an assumption and nothing more. The cinn Reds where not supposed to beat the Oakland A's in 1990 yet the Reds swept Oakland 4 straight.
Had Hakeem never played Shaq in 1995...there isn't a single person outside Houston that would have thought Shaq would lose that series let alone get swept. I mean Shaq averaged over 29 points again that year! Unreal! Yet Hakeem outplayed him in every game.

So to say Jordan would have just walked over Hakeem's team is studid. We don't know what would have happened.
All I know is Detroid and Houston were the only two teams Jordan had a losing record against. (at least up to that point in time,1995)

Chicago didn't have anyone to guard Hakeem...and on the other side of the coin Houston didn't have anyone to really guard Jordan. Vernom Maxwell gave Jordan fits in the regular season but playoffs are a different beast.
It would have been a great show had it happened.
But...Jordan left, that's not on Hakeem. If anything Jordan leaving created the discussion we have today. Who is the best modern day center.
Hakeem went up against Ewing, Robinson, Shaq. All in their prime and outscored and outplayed each one in every game against them. 7 games with Ewing, 6 with Robinsn, 4 With Shaq.
17 games at the highest level, against the best the center position had to offer and Hakeem walked away with the rings.
That's why Hakeem is ahead of Shaq in the goat list. When the opportunity was given to each of these players to prove to the world of the highest level who the best center was at the time. Hakeem won. It's that simple.
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Old 11-13-2006, 11:01 PM   #162
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one point of mention is during hakeems time, he faced more high quality centers night in and night out then shaq has had to face in his career, yes shaq has played against some of those same centers but shaq caught them at the ends of their careers where as hakeem played them during his and their primes, since the mid to late ninties shaq has pretty much had the position to himself...
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Old 11-19-2006, 02:15 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush806
Don't let anyone fool you. Shaq was a better player in 1995 then 2000. Look at the stats.

i stopped reading after i saw this bullsheat.

you want stats ? i'll give you stats.

1995: 29.3 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 2.5 bpg. 57-25 record
2000: 29.7 ppg (career high) , 13.6 rpg (second highest), 3.8 apg (career high), 3.03 bpg (second highest). 67-15 record (best record any of his teams ever had)

2000 lakers > any of olajuwon rockets.

it is stupid to asume hakeem would beat shaq in 2000 because of what he did in 1995, in 95 shaq had that bum coach briant hill and that choker wannabe penny hardaway as a sidekick, in 2000 he had a better sidekick in kobe bryant and a 100x better coach who has a 10-1 record in the finals in phil jackson.

here endeth the lesson.
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Old 11-19-2006, 02:21 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush806
That's an assumption and nothing more.

lol, lets ask barkley, shaq, malone, stockton, thomas, magic, if you are assuming olajuwon's rockets were so much better than the other teams jordan beat to win championships you are on crack, the 95 rockets are one of the weakest and most lightloaded champions in the past 25 years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush806
Had Hakeem never played Shaq in 1995...there isn't a single person outside Houston that would have thought Shaq would lose that series let alone get swept.

i did, hakeem had a HOF sg sidekick (drexler was a 21-9-7 player, no matter how much you make excuses about his ge) and a HOF coach in rudy T, shaq had a jordan wannabe in hardaway and a scrub at coach in brian hill.


Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush806
So to say Jordan would have just walked over Hakeem's team is studid. We don't know what would have happened.

i didnt say that, but he would beat him nontheless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush806
All I know is Detroid and Houston were the only two teams Jordan had a losing record against

in the regular season, in the post season things are different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush806
Chicago didn't have anyone to guard Hakeem

they didnt have anyone to guard shaq and ewing either, and yet they beat them all the time.




Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush806
That's why Hakeem is ahead of Shaq in the goat list. When the opportunity was given to each of these players to prove to the world of the highest level who the best center was at the time. Hakeem won. It's that simple.

give 95 shaq the LA team and coach of 2000 and we wouldnt even have this stupid discussion, olajuwon had a HOF sidekick who was still more productive than peny hardaway and he had a HOF coach in rudy T, shaq didnt have those luxuries until 2000.
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Old 01-09-2007, 07:00 PM   #165
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The fact that Shaq was constantly triple and quadruple teamed in the finals with 2 7 footers BEFORE he would even get the ball says something about his worth. Also, someone said that he couldn't spread the floor like Hakeem. See my statement above! I would think that taking 4 players to contain 1 is spreading the floor!!!! 4 rings, total league dominance for years, 3 teams to 6 finals appearances ranks Shaq higher on the GOAT list than some good defense and a couple of fancy "Dream Shakes". Dream did not dominate Shaq in the Finals. The Rockets double, triple, and hell, I even saw Rudy T. helping out on defense on Shaq in that series!! And as far as sidekicks, I would rather Pippen, Drexler, and Barkley on my team at the same time than only 1 Kobe. Sure, Kobe is great, but he cost the Lakers the 04 Finals along with the boyz in the stripes!! Dominance + rings (and being the best in the league for so long) puts Shaq way ahead of Dream.
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