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Old 03-18-2009, 09:31 PM   #46
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Default Re: More on the decline - music or movies?

Neither is declining, it seems like once a month I'm finding a new band that I can enjoy. Obviously these bands are not on the level of the GOATS, but how often do those GOATS (for rock and roll) come around anyway?

50's: Chuck Berry, James Brown
60's: The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Jimi
70's: LZ, Pink Floyd
80's: GNR, Metallica, U2
90's: RATM, Nirvana, RHCP
2000's: ??

The great acts don't come by everyday. I have no idea where I'm going with this but good music is not that difficult to find, it's the people who have an ideal that they want their music to meet that think it sucks. For example, today I just borrowed a CD from The Fiery Furnaces, it's different but I enjoy most of it. Check it out.

As for movies, sure a lot of sh*t gets made, but so does a lot of good, not great, films. Take Terminator 4 for example, I expect to have a good time watching it and leave the theater thinking, "Damn, that was pretty cool and worth my money". If I can think that about a movie that I see in the theater than I can't complain. Not every film can be Apocalypse Now, that's just unrealistic expectations.

The rare, Oscar winning masterpieces are more rare, but that's how it has always been. Lots of sh*t, lots of "pretty good", and only a few that make you say "Wow" and lose control of your bowels.
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Old 03-19-2009, 02:23 PM   #47
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Default Re: More on the decline - music or movies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackass18
Movies aren't on the decline.



You can pretty much say that for any year. The more movies that get made the more bad movies there are going to be as a result.




exactly.


movies are on the up, films are still progressing as a medium.
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Old 03-19-2009, 02:48 PM   #48
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Default Re: More on the decline - music or movies?

I wouldn't call either on the decline, other than "mainstream" music/movies which HAVE ALWAYS sucked.

Its a lot easier to say Music is on the decline since so many people produce music there is a lot more garbage out there, but classic albums get put out all the time you just have to hunt for them.

Regarding movies, I'd actually say if anything mainstream movies have gotten a lot better in the past few years. Compare The Dark Knight to Batman Forever for instance.
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Old 03-19-2009, 03:04 PM   #49
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Default Re: More on the decline - music or movies?

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Originally Posted by ukplayer4
if it has to be one it would be music, seeing as how 07 is considered one of if not the greatest year in recent memory for film, there have been a ridiculous number of great films over the last few years. to suggest differently is to have a lack of appreciation, to suggest different and then admit you havent even seen the films- because they were well recieved and you are an "anti-conformist" well. obviously you are just trying to make yourself look like a mentally defective ignorant anus, i wont stand in your way....


There Will Be Blood
No Country For Old Men
the Wrestler
Wall-E
assasination of jesse james

are masterpieces


and perhaps 30-40 others are great, great films.....

And why are they masterpieces? Explain to me in your own words. Why were they so good to you personally?

I don't give a **** who considers it a classic or a masterpiece or whatever, but it's ridiculous to follow that train of thought without hesitation. If you like somethin, like it regardless of how popular or acclaimed it is. Because it's something YOU like, for your own specific reasons. Not because everyone else likes it, so you should too. Movies, music, clothes, shoes, cars, furniture, whatever you own in life, **** whatever anybody else says, cuz it only matters if you like it. Individuality is lost in our current society. Everyone wants to be like someone or be something they're not, and the majority blindly follow the pack to make sure they fit in and are accepted. Be yourself. Sometimes you might even have to be yourself by yourself, so be it. Guess what? I like Zombie Strippers more than There Will Be Blood. Why? Because the **** is over the top, ridiculously B-Movie, and it has zombies and strippers. The **** is entertaining to me, and probably not as critically sucked off as There Will Be Blood. And you know what else? I like Predator more than The Dark Knight. Because it's all a matter of preference, and I find it hard to believe that the majority of the world has the same preference and describes movies (not films, not cinema, movies) in the same words. Sounds like parrots to me.
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Old 03-20-2009, 04:12 PM   #50
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Default Re: More on the decline - music or movies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayGuevara
And why are they masterpieces? Explain to me in your own words. Why were they so good to you personally?

I don't give a **** who considers it a classic or a masterpiece or whatever, but it's ridiculous to follow that train of thought without hesitation. If you like somethin, like it regardless of how popular or acclaimed it is. Because it's something YOU like, for your own specific reasons. Not because everyone else likes it, so you should too. Movies, music, clothes, shoes, cars, furniture, whatever you own in life, **** whatever anybody else says, cuz it only matters if you like it. Individuality is lost in our current society. Everyone wants to be like someone or be something they're not, and the majority blindly follow the pack to make sure they fit in and are accepted. Be yourself. Sometimes you might even have to be yourself by yourself, so be it. Guess what? I like Zombie Strippers more than There Will Be Blood. Why? Because the **** is over the top, ridiculously B-Movie, and it has zombies and strippers. The **** is entertaining to me, and probably not as critically sucked off as There Will Be Blood. And you know what else? I like Predator more than The Dark Knight. Because it's all a matter of preference, and I find it hard to believe that the majority of the world has the same preference and describes movies (not films, not cinema, movies) in the same words. Sounds like parrots to me.




ok, firstly this is obviously a touchy subject for you, but get off the whole- im such a rebellious "nobody keeps it real anymore" individuality etc etc etc.....dude that stance itself, especially if you are American is a total cleche.....sorry.

without sounding to up myself in order to make my point clear, i am somewhat of an authority on film, now clearly that is my opinion and my opinion differs from others, so we are back at square one. however, i study film, have done for years, i write reviews, film has always been a passion and my opinion is 95% that of the critical consensus. now i know your thinking.....blah blah blah- i dont accept what im told to like etc etc etc. but, critical consensus is around about right 99% of the time, im afraid it is that way. critics- not all but most(rotten tomatoes for example has some idiotic amatuers that mascaraed as critics) are the authority on film, they are the most knowledgeable- their opinion counts for the most. there are exceptions ofcourse- the key one being, when a film that is ahead of its time comes out and gets slated but is in years afterwards consider a cinematic milestone- examples are shawshank, 2001 and citezen kane....and soon to be the fountain(its heading that way already). so therfore lets say 95-99% of the time critical consensus(i.e what the general opinion in the film world is), then there are films that divide people- they also tend to be before their time films and bandwagon movies that pick up critical steam and end up with a better consensus than hey actually deseve, examples are slumdog millionaire and Michael clayton- these films always receive the backlash(as crash did and slumdog is in the process of).

now by all means personal opinion is a factor in everything. but then you have to understand if a moron hates all good films and loves all trash their opinion is worthless, period. film is not as abstract as music, things can be quantified and value can be assessed, it is still an art form so opinion still stands for something however. also, if you have a high appreciation for film then you can often enjoy a film in a shallow or narrow way but enjoy it for what its worth and not over value it. however i very frequently see people that think they have achieved this state by giving their wrong opinion on something and then undervaluing the strength of facet that they think was good despite their personal feeling towards the film

now, what people tend to confuse with appreciation in cinema is personal bias as to how they relate to the characters or narrative/story/etc- THIS IS FUNDAMENTAL. this is the most significant thing in the wrongful appreciation of film- the appeal the film has to you personally over how good it actually is...i can go on and on and really dissect this for you but dinner beacons so ill wrap this up.... to have a good understanding and appreciation of film you have to understand what is good in good films(considered good consensusly) now if you can enjoy everything that is good, with a few exceptions that you still saw what was good in the work despite your personal disliking- which should still be marginal if you really understand cinema and appreciate film

to use you as an example- you disliked there will be blood, firstly that depends on your reasoning- the film has value like it or not, to say you enjoyed zombie strippers more is ok as long as you dont consider the latter a better film- that equates to a lack of appreciation for the qualities of there will be blood. now if you were saying another film of relevance was better, that has more legitimacy, but as i understand it zombie strippers is a pile of steaming turd and i assume thats why you used it as an example(to show your loathing of blood). there will be blood has elements of art film, and art house cinema is more difficult to quantify interms of value so, theres another variable....this isnt a science. but i hope you sort of see what im getting at- that isnt really an acceptable opinion if you consider yourself a true authority. as a person- a general movie goer thats fine

your other comparison is 100% justifiable, infact id go as far as to say predator is a better film that the dark knight(does that kind of miss your point?) you have wrongfully evaluated predator as just a shallow film with less value than the dark knight, predator is a masterpiece of its genre and is considered atleast the equal of the dark knight in the film world, if not a more original film altogether. certainly they are arguable and nobody would dismiss the view that predator cant be argued as better than the dark knight.


****ing hell, im being summoned....i will get back to this later.......
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Old 03-20-2009, 04:19 PM   #51
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Default Re: More on the decline - music or movies?

I saw N.Cage "The Knowing". Weak movie.
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Old 03-21-2009, 06:08 PM   #52
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Default Re: More on the decline - music or movies?

I agree with ukplayer4 to an extent. I feel the main purpose of most movies is to entertain, so I think that entertainment value should be highly considered when rating a movie (I don't get overboard with entertainment value, though). There's plenty of other things to appreciate about a movie even if it's not the most entertaining movie ever made. Did the movie accomplish what it set out to do? If the movie fails pretty much everywhere else outside of entertainment value, then it's probably not going to get a great rating. Entertainment can make up for a number of flaws, but there comes a point when a movie has just too many flaws to cover up.

Also, it varies as to what is entertaining to different people. If you're a dipsh!t who's easily entertained by nothing but mindless car chases, explosions, shiny objects, and gun fights, then your opinion isn't valued as much. Try to appreciate movie makers that put actual thought, time, and effort into films instead of those that just rehash the same cliched sh!t. Yes, many movies share similar themes, plots, characters, elements and such, but some directors are able to put their touch onto those things and make them seem at least somewhat different and refreshing. Horror directors seem to be failing, though. I haven't seen too many recent horror movies that aren't the same tired **** that's been done a million times. It's fine to take similar plot and themes, but at least add something to it... Don't give me the same one-dimensional characters running away from the same one-dimensional villain every time.

There's so many things to consider when critiquing a movie, so I see why critics' opinions are valued much more than the average moviegoer. However, critics aren't always fair. For whatever reason, many are far too lenient on Plan 9 from Outer Space. I'll never agree with anyone that gives praise to that sack of ****. I don't really get the "it's so bad it's good' mentality. To me, it's not "it's so bad that it's good', instead it's just "it's so bad that it's really, really ****ing bad". Alright, I stop here as to not get too longwinded.
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Old 03-21-2009, 06:46 PM   #53
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Default Re: More on the decline - music or movies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackass18
I agree with ukplayer4 to an extent. I feel the main purpose of most movies is to entertain, so I think that entertainment value should be highly considered when rating a movie (I don't get overboard with entertainment value, though). There's plenty of other things to appreciate about a movie even if it's not the most entertaining movie ever made. Did the movie accomplish what it set out to do? If the movie fails pretty much everywhere else outside of entertainment value, then it's probably not going to get a great rating. Entertainment can make up for a number of flaws, but there comes a point when a movie has just too many flaws to cover up.

Also, it varies as to what is entertaining to different people. If you're a dipsh!t who's easily entertained by nothing but mindless car chases, explosions, shiny objects, and gun fights, then your opinion isn't valued as much. Try to appreciate movie makers that put actual thought, time, and effort into films instead of those that just rehash the same cliched sh!t. Yes, many movies share similar themes, plots, characters, elements and such, but some directors are able to put their touch onto those things and make them seem at least somewhat different and refreshing. Horror directors seem to be failing, though. I haven't seen too many recent horror movies that aren't the same tired **** that's been done a million times. It's fine to take similar plot and themes, but at least add something to it... Don't give me the same one-dimensional characters running away from the same one-dimensional villain every time.

There's so many things to consider when critiquing a movie, so I see why critics' opinions are valued much more than the average moviegoer. However, critics aren't always fair. For whatever reason, many are far too lenient on Plan 9 from Outer Space. I'll never agree with anyone that gives praise to that sack of ****. I don't really get the "it's so bad it's good' mentality. To me, it's not "it's so bad that it's good', instead it's just "it's so bad that it's really, really ****ing bad". Alright, I stop here as to not get too longwinded.




spot on


on the subject of entertainment, i think that often people are swayed to feel entertained by certain genres or plots because they either feel like the subject matter/themes characters relate to them, or feel they should, again clouding their judgment but also again obscuring their apprieciation/valuation of the film and its qualities....

with regards to your point about the "so bad its good films" i havent seen plan 9 from outer space but im assuming its one of those parody/pastiche movies like scream/starship troopers and i agree with your opinion on them.

its hard not to go on a mad illiterate rant on the subject of the appreciation of film and what defines it, it is hard to convey.
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Old 03-21-2009, 06:52 PM   #54
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Default Re: More on the decline - music or movies?

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I saw N.Cage "The Knowing". Weak movie.

severe understatement
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Old 03-21-2009, 07:11 PM   #55
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Default Re: More on the decline - music or movies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukplayer4
with regards to your point about the "so bad its good films" i havent seen plan 9 from outer space but im assuming its one of those parody/pastiche movies like scream/starship troopers and i agree with your opinion on them.

It's an old Ed Wood movie where the acting, plot, dialogue, set design, directing, special effects, etc... are all ridiculously bad. There's so many things wrong with the movie that all the flaws have actually endeared people to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_From_Outer_Space

"It has also earned Wood a posthumous Golden Turkey Award as the worst director ever."
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Old 03-21-2009, 09:11 PM   #56
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Default Re: More on the decline - music or movies?

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Originally Posted by Jackass18
For whatever reason, many are far too lenient on Plan 9 from Outer Space. I'll never agree with anyone that gives praise to that sack of ****. I don't really get the "it's so bad it's good' mentality. To me, it's not "it's so bad that it's good', instead it's just "it's so bad that it's really, really ****ing bad". Alright, I stop here as to not get too longwinded.

While I can certainly appreciate your position here, I, along with the critics you have alluded to, find the movie has cinematic value purely for its unintentional hilarity. The fact that it is actually a disgrace on every conceivable level makes it all the more interesting. Aspiring filmmakers, if for no other reason, should view it simply to learn from its many egregious errors.

I would strongly recommend Sinbad of the Seven Seas, a 1989 movie starring Lou Ferrigno, to anyone else capable of appreciating the occasional terrible movie for comedic purposes. The movie is undoubtedly the worst I've ever seen. The acting is pathetic (particularly from the villain), the dialogue is absurd and it has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Moreover, it is based entirely on the lie that it is inspired by a Poe story. Poe never wrote anything remotely similar, however. Everything about it is wonderfully atrocious. I cannot even begin to do it justice.
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Old 03-22-2009, 06:12 AM   #57
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Default Re: More on the decline - music or movies?

Yeah, I would also recommend Plan 9 for its entertainment factor of unintentional comedy. The man didn't let the death of Lugosi stop him...

I watched a bunch of those Hercules movies starring Lou Ferrigno when I was growing up, so I may give that a try.
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