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Old 05-23-2011, 04:02 PM   #46
ihatetimthomas
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then w

These type of threads are really dumb and have been done to death. I hate all these "what if this" and "what if that" threads. Fact is, you never know what could have been. All we do know is what has actually happened. I find these threads really pointless and it never really creates good discussion.
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Old 05-23-2011, 04:03 PM   #47
Joey Zaza
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

titles carry weight when comaring basketball players because:

1) one player can really impact a team. talking about only 5 guys on the floor, playing both sides of the ball. No other team-game comes close to the amount that one person can do. As a result, if you are THAT good, you should be winning;

2) moderately talented players can put up good stats on bad team. Its not "easy" as some would say, but if there's no demands on sharing the ball, working for good shots, or defense, big time, pts, assts, stls, bds, whatever can come. Winning is the equalizer

3) Titles help figure out where a player stands in their era. If a guy wasn't playing in deep May, he just wasn't that important at that time.

That being said:

MJ was immensely talented and hard-working on a par with anyone who has ever played. His success, however, also involved a perfect storm of factors. The triangle was the perfect system for him because it allowed him (and not some Chalmers-esque pg) to have the ball and still forced him to move the ball. Scottie could have buckled under the pressure of playing with Micheal, but instead he rose to it. P.Jax and MJ understood each other. Who knows why, but it may have been different with someone else.

The team was well run at that time--mostly because they had a great playerto start with to cover up some mistakes--they still put the right peices together.

It all started with MJ, but youcannot do it all alone. that's established.
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Old 05-23-2011, 04:05 PM   #48
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
If the Mavs win it this year it will be looked at as one of the improbable titles of all time. Dirk will be right up there with Hakeem/Duncan/Barry if he keeps up his level of play for carrying a team to a title.

History will not change that. Just like it hasn't for Barry in 75, Hakeem in 94, or Duncan in 03.

No. Just no.

Dirk's team has performed at a considerably higher level than those guys' teams did and Dirk himself has performed considerably worse than those guys. Especially Hakeem and Duncan.
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Old 05-23-2011, 04:08 PM   #49
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
If the Mavs win it this year it will be looked at as one of the improbable titles of all time. Dirk will be right up there with Hakeem/Duncan/Barry if he keeps up his level of play for carrying a team to a title.

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Old 05-23-2011, 04:10 PM   #50
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doranku
No. Just no.

Dirk's team has performed at a considerably higher level than those guys' teams did and Dirk himself has performed considerably worse than those guys. Especially Hakeem and Duncan.

Yes, just yes.

Dirk would be the 4th most impressive on that list, but he'd be on that list.

Name more impressive title runs with worse supporting casts.

Actually, I'd probably rank Dirk over Barry if the Mavs beat the Heat.
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Old 05-23-2011, 04:58 PM   #51
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

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Old 05-23-2011, 05:25 PM   #52
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

Quote:
If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

He would have taken his talents elsewhere and became GOAT.

/thread
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Old 05-23-2011, 05:57 PM   #53
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourthTenor
I still don't see what you think the justification is for this.

You could compare the ways in which Duncan and Garnett score, because they both score. You can compare their efficiency, free throw shooting, usage rate etc. because its strictly an apples-to-apples comparison.

You can compare their rebounding because they both rebound. You can compare their passing because they both pass. Defense, minutes per game, etc.

But they didnt have the same coach. They didnt have the same teammates. They didnt play on teams with equal payrolls. These things are huge factors in playoff success.

So why would you even bring that up if you're comparing them? It's nothing they can control and its no measure of them as players. It's just an excuse for people who are too lazy or too incompetent to compare them in the aforementioned ways.

There's literally no place for it. Even in a sport like basketball the team FAR outweighs the individual. History proves it. So leave the team achievements out. If you cant make a comparison based on the players themselves, then just excuse yourself from the argument. It's not that hard. Ya know?

There's no place in sports for a quantifiable number that show-cases how many times you have come out on the top for your respective sport? Look man, I clearly understand your anger here. But stop talking like your opinion is the absolute and calling everyone a retard just because they "disagree" with you. No one is going to take you seriously if you do that.

As for using rings as an argument itself, it's called luck, father time, and it is what it is. Was Duncan lucky to have had a better organization, coach, or team-mates? Sure. But as time passes, ultimately the number of rings becomes an enormous factor in how a player is placed on the all-time list.
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Old 05-23-2011, 05:57 PM   #54
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourthTenor
I still don't see what you think the justification is for this.

You could compare the ways in which Duncan and Garnett score, because they both score. You can compare their efficiency, free throw shooting, usage rate etc. because its strictly an apples-to-apples comparison.

You can compare their rebounding because they both rebound. You can compare their passing because they both pass. Defense, minutes per game, etc.

But they didnt have the same coach. They didnt have the same teammates. They didnt play on teams with equal payrolls. These things are huge factors in playoff success.

So why would you even bring that up if you're comparing them? It's nothing they can control and its no measure of them as players. It's just an excuse for people who are too lazy or too incompetent to compare them in the aforementioned ways.

There's literally no place for it. Even in a sport like basketball the team FAR outweighs the individual. History proves it. So leave the team achievements out. If you cant make a comparison based on the players themselves, then just excuse yourself from the argument. It's not that hard. Ya know?
All righty. You should Compare Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett without factoring in titles.

I honestly think that in terms of impact, both are extremely close. I can't pick, Kevin Garnett had a more all around/versatile game, a better all around peak, had a better jumper, was a better perimeter defender. Tim Duncan was the better interior defender, better shot blocker, and was more consistent throughout his years. (Until this year)
I give Duncan the slight edge because of the titles, after all a player's legacy also is largely dependent on his situation. Kevin was just unlucky to rot his career in Minny.

Which is the better player in this case? I don't know. You tell me.
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Old 05-23-2011, 06:05 PM   #55
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doranku
No. Just no.

Dirk's team has performed at a considerably higher level than those guys' teams did and Dirk himself has performed considerably worse than those guys. Especially Hakeem and Duncan.

I think Dirk would have a very good case to be on the list DMAVS mentioned. Like he said, he would probably rank 4th on that list but it's not like the Mavs were heavy favorites to win it all at any point this season. They played so well this year and a part of that is because, for most of the season, Dirk played at an MVP level. I still don't understand why he went form being a strong candidate for the MVP early in the season to completely falling out of the discussion. The Mavs were as hot and playing as well as any team in the regular season before Dirk got injured. Then they lost something like 7 or 8 games in a row. Dirk came back and the Mavs starting winning games again.

Now, I do think the impact of Tyson Chandler on the team can't be overstated, but this is Dirk's team. He is playing with ZERO all-stars. His supporting cast consists of older former stars who are a shell of what they used to be, i.e. Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion. One thing not being mentioned much during this playoff run is that the Mavericks are doing this without Caron Butler.

From what I've read on Rick Barry and the '74-'75 Warriors, that seemed like pretty improbable title run. Barry put up very gaudy numbers and, like Dirk this year, didn't have another all-star on his team. The second best player on the team that year was a rookie Jamaal Wilkes. Barry's numbers that year were ridiculous: 30.6 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 6.7 apg, 2.9 spg. However, that title also coincided with a very weak era for the NBA. It was arguably the weakest era of the NBA.

Hakeem leading the Rockets to the 1994 championship was also somewhat improbable. Hakeem put up very good numbers: 27.3 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 3.6 apg, 3.7 bpg, 1.6 spg. His supporting cast though consisted of Otis Thorpe, Robert Horry, Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell. Solid players in their own right but it's not like they were perennial all-stars or anything.

If Dirk is somehow able to win a championship this year, despite not putting up as good of numbers as Barry/Olajuwon/Duncan, it would still be pretty incredible. There were a lot of people picking the Blazers to beat them in the first round. After the Blazers came back from 23 down to win game 4 and tie the series 2-2, it would've been easy for the Mavs to crumble and lose the series. They regained the composure, though, and won the next two games. They then went on to SWEEP the two time defending champs who also had homecourt advantage. Yes, the Lakers were showing some signs of aging but they were still the two time defending champs with essentially the exact same roster. If you were to pick the five best players in the series you could very easily said the Lakers had 4 of the 5. If they go on to beat a young up and coming Thunder team and, then say, they beat the Heat in the Finals, it would be a very impressive and improbable championship run.
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Old 05-23-2011, 06:30 PM   #56
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

Jordan was not going to stay in a small market. Chicago was ripe for a guy like MJ to come in a storm the entire world blitzkeig stye.
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Old 05-23-2011, 06:30 PM   #57
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Yes, just yes.

Dirk would be the 4th most impressive on that list, but he'd be on that list.

Name more impressive title runs with worse supporting casts.

Actually, I'd probably rank Dirk over Barry if the Mavs beat the Heat.
Dirk has a solid supporting cast. May not have a second superstar like Wade/Bron, but they are all really solid players. Don't act like Jason Terry is a scrub. He could very well be a poor man's Cycle Drexler.

Btw, with everyone talking about how Steve Nash is aging really well, it's about time we give Jason Kidd some credit as well. Maybe he's not posting really eye poppin numbers, but lately as seeing him play, he's really doing a great job as the floor general. Including great defense on Kobe & Westrbook.

But yeah. Dirk would not be ahead of guys like Olajuwon, Duncan, but it's still a pretty impressive run regardless. As no one thought the Mavs would be where they are now.

Last edited by Eat Like A Bosh : 05-23-2011 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 05-23-2011, 06:33 PM   #58
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

Then he wouldn't be the GOAT.

But since he played for the Bulls, he is the GOAT.
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Old 05-23-2011, 07:04 PM   #59
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

The greater the player, the easier it is to build a team most of the time.
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Old 05-23-2011, 07:34 PM   #60
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Default Re: If Michael Jordan played for the Nuggets or Hornets he'd have no titles... then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eat Like A Bosh
Dirk has a solid supporting cast. May not have a second superstar like Wade/Bron, but they are all really solid players. Don't act like Jason Terry is a scrub. He could very well be a poor man's Cycle Drexler.


And that makes him a great second banana on a championship team? A poor man's Clyde Drexler? Really??

Clyde Drexler averaged 34.6 mpg over his career and scored 20.4 ppg, 6.1 apg, and 5.4 rpg on 47.2% shooting. Prime Clyde was a 25-27 ppg scorer while grabbing 6-7 rpg and dishing out 6 apg on 50% shooting. He also lead a team to the NBA finals as the "alpha-dog" only to be beat by the GOAT.

Terry and Clyde aren't even close to the same type of player, anyway. If you're going to call Terry a poor man's version of someone, at least call him the poor man's version of a comparable player. Like, oh I don't know, another career 6th man/instant offense off the bench type player like Vinnie Johnson. He's probably not even a poor man's Vinnie Johnson. In fact, their career stat lines are pretty similar. I'm using their per 36 minutes stats because Terry has averaged nearly 8 more minutes per game over the course of his career.

Per 36 Minutes during the Pistons back-to-back titles, Vinnie Johnson...

1988-1989: 19.6 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.3 spg, 46.4% FG
1989-1990: 14.7 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 4.7 agp, 1.3 spg, 43.1% FG


Let's look at Jason Terryin 2006 and this season

2005-2006: 17.6 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.3 spg, 47.0% FG
2010-2011: 18.2 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.3 spg, 45.1% FG

Johnson and Terry are much more comparable players than Terry and Drexler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eat Like A Bosh
Btw, with everyone talking about how Steve Nash is aging really well, it's about time we give Jason Kidd some credit as well. Maybe he's not posting really eye poppin numbers, but lately as seeing him play, he's really doing a great job as the floor general. Including great defense on Kobe & Westrbook.

But yeah. Dirk would not be ahead of guys like Olajuwon, Duncan, but it's still a pretty impressive run regardless. As no one thought the Mavs would be where they are now.

The rest of this I agree with. Kidd has been very good in the playoffs and I don't know if you can overstate how much the addition of Peja has meant to this team.

Last edited by KG215 : 05-23-2011 at 07:42 PM.
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