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  1. #76
    I hit open 5-foot jumpshots with ease TMacMagic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    Quote Originally Posted by Kews1
    And why is that?
    2 many other good players, lb still has a lot to learn.

  2. #77
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    Quote Originally Posted by jlauber
    As for that "2-17" comment. as ALWAYS, it was Wilt's IMPACT at the line that made a difference. Do you realize that Wilt had every Warrior in foul trouble in that game? And that his Sixers attempted 64 FTAs to SF's 29? And that they blew away the Warriors from the line in that series? And that EVERY Chamberlain team either LED the league in FTAs, or were near the top in that category?
    J, my stance on the 2-17 comment is meant to show that he finally had more than enough help to overcome any crucial problems he had on the free throw line. It wouldn't matter if Wilt was going 2-17 or 2-12 in Finals games, he had the help to complement the rest of his skills and show full impact on the game.

    Never said Wilt didn't help those teams become great, especially the Sixers.

  3. #78
    3-time NBA All-Star
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    Quote Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
    J, my stance on the 2-17 comment is meant to show that he finally had more than enough help to overcome any crucial problems he had on the free throw line. It wouldn't matter if Wilt was going 2-17 or 2-12 in Finals games, he had the help to complement the rest of his skills and show full impact on the game.

    Never said Wilt didn't help those teams become great, especially the Sixers.
    Well, to be honest, my response was directed more at other posters on this board. To merely look at Wilt's poor FT shooting, without putting it into it's full context is misleading. Chamberlain's teammates benefitted from the pounding that Chamberlain leveled against his opponents in terms of fouls. He was getting them into the bonus much earlier, and more often, as well as reducing defensive effectiveness because of foul trouble. Furthermore, Wilt himself, was benefitting from the most "and-one's" in NBA history, as well as the mant "3-to-make-2" situations he had (and while the misses still counted, a 2-3 from the line was the equivalent to 2-2.)

    And, as I pointed out, somehow Russell's teams were able to overcome his less than stellar FT%'s (as well as some poor FG% series), and Shaq won title with awful FT shooting, as well.

    Instead of those ripping Chamberlain for his poor FT shooting, they should look at the entire picture. Sure, Wilt might have won a couple of more titles had he made some more FTs, but the fact remains, without Chamberlain, those teams probably would have been first round cannon-fodde, or worse, without Wilt (which, was, in fact the case.)

  4. #79
    BostonCeltics Kews1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    Quote Originally Posted by TMacMagic
    2 many other good players, lb still has a lot to learn.
    theres no way you can name 20 players better than Lebron James without being extremely biased.

  5. #80
    2nd Greatest Player Lebron23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    Quote Originally Posted by Kews1
    theres no way you can name 20 players better than Lebron James without being extremely biased.

    The guy is a useless troll. Just put him on your ignore lists. LeBron is better than his favorite player homobe.

  6. #81
    Local High School Star WillC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    Quote Originally Posted by jlauber
    Basketball is a TEAM sport. I believe another poster made a good point a couple of years ago...

    That, unless you could take, say all of the Top-20 all-time greats, and somehow put them onto absolutely equal (and healthy rosters), with the same coaching, and perhaps even the same system...there is simply no way of comparing TEAM success in these all-time discussions. I have long maintained that KG would have won considerably more rings in his career, had he not been saddled with poor rosters in the prime of his career.

    And Oscar's TEAM success is under-rated, as well. He not only carried a 55-25 Royals team in the mid-60's, but he played on FOUR Milwaukee teams that went 66-16 (and won a title), 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23 (and lost a game seven in the Finals.) And while there were other factors, as well, the Bucks immediately plummetted to a 38-44 record after Oscar retired.

    He certainly has an indivdual resume to be considered a Top-10 player, though. Personally, I have him in the 12th to 15th range.
    Which 11 to 14 players have you got ranked ahead of Oscar Robertson? I'm curious.

    As someone who knows so much about 1960s basketball, I thought you'd appreciate Oscar's game more than most.

  7. #82
    3-time NBA All-Star
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    Quote Originally Posted by WillC
    Which 11 to 14 players have you got ranked ahead of Oscar Robertson? I'm curious.

    As someone who knows so much about 1960s basketball, I thought you'd appreciate Oscar's game more than most.
    I try to base my rankings with a somewhat consistent criteria. That criteria includes MVPs, FMVPs, rings, overall career W-L, and of course, individual brilliance. Of course, Oscar is lacking in some of those categories, although to be fair, he had to go against the Russell Dynasty, and the greatest individual player in the history of the game, too.

    As we both know, a player only has so much control of the TEAM aspect. You brought up a good point with the Magic-Oscar comparison. And the same could be said for Chamberlain, too. John Wooden claimed that had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters, that likely Chamberlain would have won all of those rings. Which, incidently, is why I have Wilt near the top in my rankings. He came within an eyelash of beating Russell's Celtics on four occasions, as well as being competitive with inferior rosters in '60 and '64...or a total of six seasons in which he could have won rings against Russell's better teams.

    In terms of individual brilliance, and over an extended period, Oscar may be a top-5 player. However, the bottom line, though, at least for me, is that he only won that one MVP; he only won one ring (and he had FOUR seasons with Kareem BTW); and he had zero FMVPs (and yes, I think we both know that there were FMVPs in the 60's...even if the award didn't exist until '69.

    His apg margins were staggering, so a case could be made that he was the greatest passer in NBA history. He was a great scorer, who, unfortunately for him, played in the Chamberlain-era. Hard to believe a player could average 30 ppg in a season, and finish 20 ppg behind the leader. Against the league average, he was arguably the most efficient shooting guard in NBA history. His '63 season of .518, against a league average of .441, translates to .570 in MJ's '87 season. So, in fact, he probably was even slightly more efficient that Magic, when Johnson was putting up those insane .561 and .565 seasons. And, his rebounding was exceptional, albeit, in the one area which was considerably more inflated than any other statistical category in the 60's (and here again, that was really only in the early 60's.) Finally, his defense was solid and probably under-rated.

    But, using my criteria (for whatever that 's worth), I just can't rank him over players like Russell, Wilt, MJ, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Bird, Hakeem, or Moses. And even at this stage, Lebron probably has a case over Oscar, as well.

    You are welcome to disagree, but I probably have Oscar at #13.

  8. #83
    Local High School Star WillC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    Thanks for the reply. You make some fair points.

    You can certainly make a case for each of those players ahead of Oscar Robertson. Personally, I'd have a hard time buying any argument that Moses Malone was a better player than Oscar Robertson.

    Here are some all-time rankings:

    Associated Press Player of the Century: Oscar 2nd, Moses unranked (didn't get a vote in the top 14)
    Book of Basketball (Bill Simmons): Oscar 10th, Moses 13th
    Slam 500: Oscar 5th, Moses 15th
    Slam top 75 (2003): Oscar 3rd, Moses 16th
    Who's Better, Who's Best? (Elliot Kalb): Oscar 8th, Moses 14th
    SPORT Magazine's 50th Anniversary (Peter Vecsey): Oscar 11th, Moses 16th
    Basketball's 100 Greatest Players (Wayne Patterson): Oscar 5th, Moses 17th
    Athlon Sports' Pro Basketball Special: Oscar 4th, Moses unranked (didn't feature in top 10)

  9. #84
    3-time NBA All-Star
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    Quote Originally Posted by WillC
    Thanks for the reply. You make some fair points.

    You can certainly make a case for each of those players ahead of Oscar Robertson. Personally, I'd have a hard time buying any argument that Moses Malone was a better player than Oscar Robertson.

    Here are some all-time rankings:

    Associated Press Player of the Century: Oscar 2nd, Moses unranked (didn't get a vote in the top 14)
    Book of Basketball (Bill Simmons): Oscar 10th, Moses 13th
    Slam 500: Oscar 5th, Moses 15th
    Slam top 75 (2003): Oscar 3rd, Moses 16th
    Who's Better, Who's Best? (Elliot Kalb): Oscar 8th, Moses 14th
    SPORT Magazine's 50th Anniversary (Peter Vecsey): Oscar 11th, Moses 16th
    Basketball's 100 Greatest Players (Wayne Patterson): Oscar 5th, Moses 17th
    Athlon Sports' Pro Basketball Special: Oscar 4th, Moses unranked (didn't feature in top 10)
    IMHO, Moses in one of the most under-rated players in NBA history. I forgot to mention another "criteria" that I often use...and that is...player dominance over their peers. IMHO, there have only been three centers who have absolutely dominated ALL of their peers and in a span of several seasons. Shaq, Chamberlain, and then Moses.

    I have posted the H2H's, but Moses just PLASTERED Kareem in their majority of their 40 H2H's. He also dominated Lanier and Gilmore in their's. The man won a PLETHORA of rebounding titles, including one by nearly FIVE per game. He put up a 31-15 season. He just trashed everyone in the '83 season. Even ShaqAttack has marveled at his 81-82 season.

    THREE MVPs, (and IMHO, he should have won it in '80...he easily outplayed the MVP in his H2H's with Kareem.) A dominant FMVP. And, that overwhelming dominance over his peers for about 5-6 straight years.

  10. #85
    Local High School Star WillC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    He was disinclined to pass, play defense or let any teammate take more shots than he did.

  11. #86
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    Quote Originally Posted by WillC
    He was disinclined to pass, play defense or let any teammate take more shots than he did.
    Well, as great an offensive player as Kareem was, he barely shot over 50% in the known H2H's of his 40 career H2H's against Moses. Granted, they were not always matched up against each other, but Kareem certainly struggle more against his team's than virtually every other team he was facing in that time frame.

    As for shots...Moses piled up a ton of shots on offensive putbacks.

    IMHO, Moses and Russell were the two most relentless centers of all-time. Russell on defense, and Moses on the offensive end. And both were around 6-10.

  12. #87
    Local High School Star WillC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    True, Moses was certainly relentless. So was Charles Barkley though - another poor defender but monster rebounder.

    Out of interest, what in your opinion makes Moses a better player than Barkley? Very similar strengths (and weaknesses - both were turnover machines who played little defense), although Barkley shot a higher percentage and was a far superior ball handler and passer.

    I still can't relate to the idea that Moses was a superior basketball player to Oscar Robertson.

  13. #88
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    Quote Originally Posted by WillC
    True, Moses was certainly relentless. So was Charles Barkley though - another poor defender but monster rebounder.

    Out of interest, what in your opinion makes Moses a better player than Barkley? Very similar strengths (and weaknesses - both were turnover machines who played little defense), although Barkley shot a higher percentage and was a far superior ball handler and passer.

    I still can't relate to the idea that Moses was a superior basketball player to Oscar Robertson.
    As great as Barkley was, he was not terrorizing the entire league as much as a prime Moses did to his peers. Moses was just shelling his opposing centers at his peak...several of which are in the HOF.

    And here again, THREE MVPs to one, and a FMVP. And realistically, Moses was probably theBEST player in the league for 5-6 years.

    And, yes, it is difficult to compare Oscar and Moses. two different positions, and two different styles of play. I just look at their overall resumes, and while there is a good argument for either, given the fact that Oscar was probably no more than the third best player of his era, while Moses dominated his for several seasons...I just give a slight edge to Moses.

    Here again, though, I don't have a problem swapping either.

  14. #89
    Local High School Star WillC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    I think your argument says more about the relative amount of competition that each player faced rather than anything about the overall abilities of each player.

    I have a hard time deciding who was better: Barkley or Moses Malone. But Malone was, as you said, perhaps the best player in the league for a few years, whereas Barkley can't say the same thing. Then again, Barkley played during Magic and then Jordan's peak years.

    Malone's peak coincided with the early years of Magic and Bird and the latter years of Kareem's career.

    In fact, some books I've read (particularly 'Who's Better, Who's Best?') argue that Moses Malone's career was fortunate in terms of its timing.

    Was Malone better than David Robinson? Robinson had to face Olajuwon, Ewing and Shaq during their peak years. I'd argue Malone was indeed better than Robinson, but not significantly so.

    Going back to Oscar Robertson, he was by far the best non-center in the world for a period of 10 years or more.

    I agree with you though, it's difficult to compare guards to centers.

  15. #90
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    Default Re: Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

    I have Dirk at #11

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