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Old 08-17-2007, 08:07 PM   #16
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by RecSpecs110
It wasn't genius. 9 times out of 10, he'd look like a fool giving away the 2 Kings. His mere reaction after the other two players showed their hands told me that this guy second guessed his hand and wanted to be credited for "being disciplined enough" to fold two Kings. It's simple psychology. Even I find myself with the inclination to fold two Queens or Kings in order to brag about it later on. He made a bad move but at the right time. Don't give me that "He knew that the other guy had Aces" crap. There's no way to tell, unless the other guy tells him.

Wrong. Do you know how many tournaments these pro poker players play in? That's why they're professionals. They play poker for the whole year. The # of times they finish in the money is a LOT less than the # of tournaments they play in.

The reason Phil Hellmuth has 10 bracelets is because he has been playing poker and winning tournaments since before poker became popular. Back then, the # of participants in the tournaments was MUCH less than the # today.

I'm not saying that poker doesn't take skill. Of course it does. That;s why hellmuth has 10 bracelets. But my point is that the the vast majority of it is luck. It's not only what cards you're dealt. You also have to match the board. And bluffing as well as reading other players takes luck, too. What if you're opponent has the Nuts? You're dead if you bluff then. And there's no such thing as reading the exact hand your opponent has. It's always an approximation. What if your approximation is slightly off? Is it because you lack skill? No, it's because you were a little unlucky.
Helmuth won a braclet this year and sat down at another final table THIS YEAR

he has won for more than he has lost...

the vast majority of it is luck...just like blackjack at a casino, but over long extended period of time that is where the skill portion starts to show...

like I said, a casino makes ALL thier profit on blackjack from a 1% edge....and they make millions...if a pro has a 1% edge then over a long extended period of time he is going to win...

any one single hand can be looked at as luck....but how someone fairs after playing 1,000 hands is skill
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Old 08-17-2007, 08:09 PM   #17
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by RecSpecs110
It wasn't genius. 9 times out of 10, he'd look like a fool giving away the 2 Kings. His mere reaction after the other two players showed their hands told me that this guy second guessed his hand and wanted to be credited for "being disciplined enough" to fold two Kings. It's simple psychology. Even I find myself with the inclination to fold two Queens or Kings in order to brag about it later on. He made a bad move but at the right time. Don't give me that "He knew that the other guy had Aces" crap. There's no way to tell, unless the other guy tells him.

Wrong. Do you know how many tournaments these pro poker players play in? That's why they're professionals. They play poker for the whole year. The # of times they finish in the money is a LOT less than the # of tournaments they play in.

The reason Phil Hellmuth has 10 bracelets is because he has been playing poker and winning tournaments since before poker became popular. Back then, the # of participants in the tournaments was MUCH less than the # today.

I'm not saying that poker doesn't take skill. Of course it does. That;s why hellmuth has 10 bracelets. But my point is that the the vast majority of it is luck. It's not only what cards you're dealt. You also have to match the board. And bluffing as well as reading other players takes luck, too. What if you're opponent has the Nuts? You're dead if you bluff then. And there's no such thing as reading the exact hand your opponent has. It's always an approximation. What if your approximation is slightly off? Is it because you lack skill? No, it's because you were a little unlucky.

I don't think you have played poker extensively in a tournament or at a casino. Of course you are going to second guess moves, but if you see something funky like what the guy with the A's was doing, he might just decide he will give up the opportunity to win the pot. There are bigger things in a tournament than winning a big pot. I sure as hell might fold pocket Qs or Js if i detected something strange about how the other player was acting. I don't know how to read people much, but that guy did not have a poker face and was trying too hard to hide the AA.


Yes it takes luck to actually make your hands. Pros don't bluff because they just feel like it and hope the other player has crap. They can sense something that show how weak the person or the hand is. Bluffing is about 75% skill because you can't get guess right every time. Who cares if the read is only an approximation, that skill is something 90% of players don't have. Do YOU know how hard it is to place in the money? It's pretty clear that pros can do that consistently to some extent which shows their skill. It is fact that you need luck to win a tournament, a lot of luck. But if we were to put pros against regular players on a 5 year interval, pros will be on top.

Last edited by Rebel INS : 08-17-2007 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 08-17-2007, 09:13 PM   #18
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

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Originally Posted by krazy19
I think you're talking about when some girl got a FH with Qs while the other guy had a diamond straight flush. That was hilarious.

saw that one... dude got lucky as hell... that was a better hand than this one.
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Old 08-17-2007, 10:50 PM   #19
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

Quote:
1. five people got a pocket pair

I've seen AA, KK, JJ, 1010 and something like 77.

Quote:
2. the guy with KK made an amazing read and folded preflop

Amazing read my ass.

Quote:
3. the guy with KK would have won

Yes, he screwed himself.

Quote:
4. the guy with QQ hit one of two outs on the river to defeat AA

AA loses a lot of the time from what I've seen and from what many others have told me. A lot of people don't play AA right, though. They try to trap too much and end up getting outdrawn because of that. I don't know how many times I've lost on the river, especially over at that sh!tty UB site that seems to love screwing me on the river.
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Old 08-17-2007, 10:54 PM   #20
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
Helmuth won a braclet this year and sat down at another final table THIS YEAR

he has won for more than he has lost...

the vast majority of it is luck...just like blackjack at a casino, but over long extended period of time that is where the skill portion starts to show...

like I said, a casino makes ALL thier profit on blackjack from a 1% edge....and they make millions...if a pro has a 1% edge then over a long extended period of time he is going to win...

any one single hand can be looked at as luck....but how someone fairs after playing 1,000 hands is skill

Nope.

He has 10 bracelets, which means he has won 10 tournaments. In order for your statement to be correct, Hellmuth would have to play in 19 or less tournaments for a total of 10 wins and 9 (or less) losses. See how ridiculous that sounds? He's played a LOT more than that.
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Old 08-17-2007, 10:59 PM   #21
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel INS
I don't think you have played poker extensively in a tournament or at a casino. Of course you are going to second guess moves, but if you see something funky like what the guy with the A's was doing, he might just decide he will give up the opportunity to win the pot. There are bigger things in a tournament than winning a big pot. I sure as hell might fold pocket Qs or Js if i detected something strange about how the other player was acting. I don't know how to read people much, but that guy did not have a poker face and was trying too hard to hide the AA.


Yes it takes luck to actually make your hands. Pros don't bluff because they just feel like it and hope the other player has crap. They can sense something that show how weak the person or the hand is. Bluffing is about 75% skill because you can't get guess right every time. Who cares if the read is only an approximation, that skill is something 90% of players don't have. Do YOU know how hard it is to place in the money? It's pretty clear that pros can do that consistently to some extent which shows their skill. It is fact that you need luck to win a tournament, a lot of luck. But if we were to put pros against regular players on a 5 year interval, pros will be on top.

My original claim is that poker takes around 75-80% luck, and you haven't proven otherwise. Yes, by simple math, it means that 20-25% is skill. I never said that poker didn't take skill. It doesn't matter if I've played in a casino or not. I've watched, studied, and played enough poker to understand where luck and skill take turns. And if YOU know poker well enough, you'd understand the notion that poker takes a lot more luck than it does skill.

Last edited by RecSpecs110 : 08-17-2007 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:07 PM   #22
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

Poker has as much to do with how well you play the game as it does to what cards are dealt. That is a fact that cannot be ignored nor argued otherwise.

Go to youtube, and check out Poker - Great Reads and check out the ones that involve Phil Ivey. That is brillant poker. That is what it's all about. Nothing about luck involved there, it's about skills bro.

I especially like the hand where Phil pushed the guy in with Queen high. That's just a sick, sick read and he had the balls to make the move.

Now you tell me how luck is involved there?
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:24 PM   #23
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
Poker has as much to do with how well you play the game as it does to what cards are dealt. That is a fact that cannot be ignored nor argued otherwise.

Go to youtube, and check out Poker - Great Reads and check out the ones that involve Phil Ivey. That is brillant poker. That is what it's all about. Nothing about luck involved there, it's about skills bro.

I especially like the hand where Phil pushed the guy in with Queen high. That's just a sick, sick read and he had the balls to make the move.

Now you tell me how luck is involved there?

I admit Phil Ivey is a great poker player. He is bold, skillful, and he makes some sick reads, as you mentioned.

But for every sick read that he makes, he makes two misreads. Believe me, I've seen Ivey make just about the dumbest moves most amateurs wouldn't do at times. As they say, "You live by the call, you die by the call."

You forget the times he badly screws up and only retain the memories of his success.

Besides, that is just one hand. I'm talking about winning a whole tournament, not winning one hand within a certain context. And I really REALLY hope that you weren't implying that Phil Ivey has even come close to winning a tournament without luck.

Once again, the fact that winning in poker requires more luck than skill is the undeniable truth.

Last edited by RecSpecs110 : 08-17-2007 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by RecSpecs110
My original claim is that poker takes around 75-80% luck, and you haven't proven otherwise. Yes, by simple math, it means that 20-25% is skill. I never said that poker didn't take skill. It doesn't matter if I've played in a casino or not. I've watched, studied, and played enough poker to understand where luck and skill take turns. And if YOU know poker well enough, you'd understand the notion that poker takes a lot more luck than it does skill.

id go with 65luck/35 skill.

Ive laid down KK before, and sure enough the guy showed me that he had AA.
On that hand the guy raises, got reraised then another guy pushes. Cut your losses. He only had 6k in there. Especially in tournament format where, you not playing that hand might mean one of the other two knocks the other out and you move up in the real money payouts.
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:32 PM   #25
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

Of course luck has something to do with winning...every winner of a tournament will tell you he sucked out of someone on more than one occasion. But that's not the point...

The point is you can't brush peoples wins at the poker table as luck. I know when I get out-played... it's not a good feeling. I also know when I set people up, you know...take advantage of their style, it's a great feeling and luck has nothing to do with it.

It's hard to put a percentile on how much is luck vs. skill.... but at the pro level, where everyone knows the game fairly well... the skill level takes dominance. 60/40 ratio if I absoulutly had to put a ratio on it.

I mean, I know what you're saying. For example you could play heads-up with a pro right now and just push every hand and see if "luck" is on your side... but that really isn't poker.

At least that's not what I think of when the word poker comes up.
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

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Originally Posted by RecSpecs110
Nope.

He has 10 bracelets, which means he has won 10 tournaments. In order for your statement to be correct, Hellmuth would have to play in 19 or less tournaments for a total of 10 wins and 9 (or less) losses. See how ridiculous that sounds? He's played a LOT more than that.
let me rephrase that...

he has finished in the money more times than not...

as in...he has won more cash playing poker than he has lost
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:42 PM   #27
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

Hellmuth has won $5,650,786 at the WSOP and is ranked 7th on the WSOP All Time Money List.

his 11 braclets:

1989 $10,000 No Limit Hold'em World Championship $755,000
1992 $5,000 Limit Hold'em $188,000
1993 $1,500 Limit Hold'em $138,000
1993 $2,500 No Limit Hold'em $161,400
1993 $5,000 No Limit Hold'em $173,000
1997 $3,000 Pot Limit Hold'em $204,000
2001 $2,000 No Limit Hold'em $316,000
2003 $2,500 Limit Hold'em $171,400
2003 $3,000 No Limit Hold'em $410,860
2006 $1,000 No Limit Hold'em with rebuys $631,863
2007 $1,500 No Limit Hold'em $637,254


and those are just the times that he finished in 1st place...

do you have any idea how many times he has finished 2nd - 20th place?

he wins...all the time.....because there is more to the game than luck...


and what about the WPT?...he hasn't won one yet but he has defenatly won money

World Poker Tour
Hellmuth has not won a World Poker Tour(WPT) tournament yet. He has cashed 9 times and made 2 final tables. He finished 4th in the $3,000 No Limit Hold'em WPT Event at the 3rd Annual 49'er Gold Rush Bonanza in 2002 and 3rd in the $10,000 No Limit Hold'em WPT Event at the World Poker Finals at Foxwoods in 2003. He also played in two WPT Invitational Events, the World Poker Tour by The Book Invitational in 2004 and the WPT Bad Boys of Poker II Invitational in 2006 and finished 3rd both times.[5]


To date, Hellmuth has won $589,964 in WPT tournaments


other crap:

Hellmuth is the season 3 champion of Late Night Poker.

In 2005 Hellmuth won the first National Heads-Up Poker Championship. He defeated Men Nguyen, Paul Phillips, Huck Seed, Lyle Berman and Antonio Esfandiari on the way to the final against Chris Ferguson whom he defeated in two out of three games. While trying to repeat in 2006, he lost in the first round to Chip Reese. In 2007, Hellmuth did not play due to the PartyPoker.com Premier League Poker, a tournament in which he took part. He won 4 out of his 6 group matches and eventually finished 3rd in the finals.

Hellmuth appeared in several episodes of Poker After Dark, but he did not manage to win one.[5]

Hellmuth also appeared in the first season of High Stakes Poker[6]and will also appear in Season 4, which was filmed in May 2007.

As of 2007, his total live tournament winnings exceed $9,580,000.[5] He is ranked 4th on the All Time Money List, behind Jamie Gold, Joe Hachem and Daniel Negreanu.[7]


the guy can play some cards...you might get lucky on him every now in then but in the long run he will kick your ass in....PERIOD
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:53 PM   #28
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

Poker is stupid, you guys need to play more War, Bullshit and Uno.
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:54 PM   #29
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by RecSpecs110
My original claim is that poker takes around 75-80% luck, and you haven't proven otherwise. Yes, by simple math, it means that 20-25% is skill. I never said that poker didn't take skill. It doesn't matter if I've played in a casino or not. I've watched, studied, and played enough poker to understand where luck and skill take turns. And if YOU know poker well enough, you'd understand the notion that poker takes a lot more luck than it does skill.

I don't dispute your claim that it takes more luck than skill. The only reason luck is that much higher is because you can still be outdrawn with the correct read and play. You seem to knock the pros like hellmuth for being good in a game that depends on this much luck. I believe the reason the pros don't win as much as they deserve to is this luck factor. If you played in any tournaments you would realize that it is hard to be in the top 10% of the field dealing with this unknown factor of luck. Although it doesn't look like they win a lot of tournaments, it is pretty apparent that the Pros are worthy of being a level above the rest of the players.
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Old 08-18-2007, 01:20 AM   #30
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Default Re: Amazing poker hand, 5 pocket pairs

Carbine, I understand your point on outplaying someone else. But the majority of hands that you play reflect on the cards that are dealt to you. The majority of hands you win are based on you having the best hand. Bluffing, outplaying, and making a good read comes into play periodically. You can't do it all the time. The hands that you get are usually the basis of your next move and whether you win the pot or lose. Luck doesn't simply have something to do with poker. It is poker. Skill enhances your chances of winning, but without luck, the most skilled poker player would lose.

primetime, I get what your saying now.

Rebel, ok so we agree.

Randy, get the hell out of here. Poker rocks.
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