Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > Football Forum

Football Forum Football forum - NFL football forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-06-2012, 03:46 PM   #76
-p.tiddy-
the Sho Kosugi of ISH
 
-p.tiddy-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: -dallas, texas-
Posts: 11,226
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by niko
you are implying the dline rushed brady and that is why he did worse than Eli. Eli got rushed too. Again, i showed you stats which you are ignoring. Eli got rushed but survived it. Did you mention that in white text?
I wasn't saying anything about the Pats rush or compareing them or QBs...I was just saying the giants dline should get props...we put too much focus on the QB...NOT THAT THE QB WAS BAD.

I didn't ignore anything...you just want to fight.
-p.tiddy- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 04:20 PM   #77
Carbine
Facts Are Misleading
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: A Court Near You
Posts: 8,079
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

Your premise is correct, everyone should be aware of how great the team around Eli is, but that's the case with any superbowl winning quarterback. Great teams that have great breaks go their way. There are numerous cases of "breaks" going the Giants way this season, and in their other superbowl.

It's why judging quarterbacks on rings is ignorant. One or two of those forced fumbles could have gone the other way yesterday, and the Giants could have lost the game because of nothing to do with Eli. It's really a flawed logic to judge quarterbacks by rings. Welker could make that catch and most likely the Pats win. Winning and losing is so fragile.

Eli is commended for playing extremely well in big games. That's how I look at it. I mean that throw to Manningham at the end of the game....best throw of the night (and playoffs as far as I'm concerned of any quarterback) and he hits it in the biggest moment of the game. That's incredible.

But the Giants D-line wasn't THAT great in the game. They played average I think. You speak of the safety, but Brady had enough time to make a proper decision. They were running all short or intermediate routes on that play, the ball is suppose to come out quick because someone is suppose to be open - they weren't.

It's not like Brady couldn't even get to his drop before he was pressured, he stood there and Tuck finally got pressure, but it wasn't instant.

You can ask any analyst or anyone who knows football this morning, and they'll tell you the offensive line did a great job last night. You're the only one saying opposite.
Carbine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 04:48 PM   #78
bsyde82
Decent playground baller
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 355
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

Just a few notes from reading through this thread...

1. to anyone saying Eli "owned" Brady in this game or the last SB, you're a complete and utter moron. I don't think this requires any explanation.

2. I think Eli is a really good QB. As a niner fan, he earned my respect after the regular season game because he was on fire, save for two boneheaded throws (a classic Eli element)

3. I think Eli made a deal with the devil considering his incredible streak of luck. If we're all being honest, luck plays a HUGE role in football, especially today when teams are so close, competitively speaking. Short recap - if any of those fumbles bounce the Patriots way (or in one case, a Bill Belichek coached team accidentally had 12 men on the field), the game is completely different. In the case of Bradshaw's fumble, the giants would be in a HUGE hole. So there's that. Then there's the welker drop that he catches 99/100 times, which would probably seal the game for the Pats. So there's that.

4. Going back further, did he "win" the NFC championship? I give him credit for a tough performance, taking all the hits he took. But the fact remains that he had at least 3 chances at the end of the game/in OT to drive the giants to just get a FG, and he couldn't. It took a colossal error by a back up 2nd year punt returner in a wet game that basically gifted a FG and the win to the Giants. Yea, I'm a bitter niners fan, but those are the facts. Oh, not to mention the Bradshaw non-call fumble, and the two sure picks Eli threw that Dashon Goldson decided to sabotage.

5. Going back further, Romo doesn't overthrow a wide open (Miles Austin?) in the first giants-cowboys game, and that game is done, and so are the giant's postseason hopes.

I guess that's more than a few notes, but my point is not to bash Eli. I think he's near elite, and he took a huge step this year. But HOF? I can't believe people are ready to induct him NOW. The first SB was won due to an all-time defensive effort and some miracle plays, including Asante Samuel's complete drop of a sure INT that would've sealed the game, which just happened to occur right before the Tyree catch. Eli's game winning TD throw, while a good throw, was basic, because Plax was single-covered and wide open. A true game winning throw in the SB - see Big Ben to Santonio.

The fact is, before this year, Eli was a very middling qb statistically (most years sub 60% completion, poor TD-INT ratio), and to those who say stats don't matter, well, I think they do because elite QBs who produce statistically good seasons year and year usually have their teams in contention year after year. The Giants in 07 and 11 just had incredible runs of fortune at the back end of their seasons. Other years, I honestly don't remember the Giants making noise or even being considered a contender by anyone.

I get you can do what I just did to most players - but Eli's streak of good fortune is significantly crazier than anyone I can remember.
bsyde82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 04:58 PM   #79
Sarcastic
NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
 
Sarcastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Latvian Ladder
Posts: 25,064
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsyde82
Just a few notes from reading through this thread...

1. to anyone saying Eli "owned" Brady in this game or the last SB, you're a complete and utter moron. I don't think this requires any explanation.

2. I think Eli is a really good QB. As a niner fan, he earned my respect after the regular season game because he was on fire, save for two boneheaded throws (a classic Eli element)

3. I think Eli made a deal with the devil considering his incredible streak of luck. If we're all being honest, luck plays a HUGE role in football, especially today when teams are so close, competitively speaking. Short recap - if any of those fumbles bounce the Patriots way (or in one case, a Bill Belichek coached team accidentally had 12 men on the field), the game is completely different. In the case of Bradshaw's fumble, the giants would be in a HUGE hole. So there's that. Then there's the welker drop that he catches 99/100 times, which would probably seal the game for the Pats. So there's that.

4. Going back further, did he "win" the NFC championship? I give him credit for a tough performance, taking all the hits he took. But the fact remains that he had at least 3 chances at the end of the game/in OT to drive the giants to just get a FG, and he couldn't. It took a colossal error by a back up 2nd year punt returner in a wet game that basically gifted a FG and the win to the Giants. Yea, I'm a bitter niners fan, but those are the facts. Oh, not to mention the Bradshaw non-call fumble, and the two sure picks Eli threw that Dashon Goldson decided to sabotage.

5. Going back further, Romo doesn't overthrow a wide open (Miles Austin?) in the first giants-cowboys game, and that game is done, and so are the giant's postseason hopes.

I guess that's more than a few notes, but my point is not to bash Eli. I think he's near elite, and he took a huge step this year. But HOF? I can't believe people are ready to induct him NOW. The first SB was won due to an all-time defensive effort and some miracle plays, including Asante Samuel's complete drop of a sure INT that would've sealed the game, which just happened to occur right before the Tyree catch. Eli's game winning TD throw, while a good throw, was basic, because Plax was single-covered and wide open. A true game winning throw in the SB - see Big Ben to Santonio.

The fact is, before this year, Eli was a very middling qb statistically (most years sub 60% completion, poor TD-INT ratio), and to those who say stats don't matter, well, I think they do because elite QBs who produce statistically good seasons year and year usually have their teams in contention year after year. The Giants in 07 and 11 just had incredible runs of fortune at the back end of their seasons. Other years, I honestly don't remember the Giants making noise or even being considered a contender by anyone.

I get you can do what I just did to most players - but Eli's streak of good fortune is significantly crazier than anyone I can remember.

And yet that is all you are doing almost exclusively.

Keep hating. He'll keep winning Super Bowls.
Sarcastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:05 PM   #80
niko
I Run NY.
 
niko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 28,386
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

I see,people are not trying to discredit Eli, it just sounds that way.

Last edited by niko : 02-06-2012 at 05:24 PM.
niko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:06 PM   #81
Heavincent
NBA Superstar
 
Heavincent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 14,053
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

Ugh, this is at 6 pages? Let me guess, people are trying to discredit Eli already?

Come on now.
Heavincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:11 PM   #82
Sarcastic
NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
 
Sarcastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Latvian Ladder
Posts: 25,064
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavincent
Ugh, this is at 6 pages? Let me guess, people are trying to discredit Eli already?

Come on now.

Yea, apparently he is just a lucky bonehead that made a deal with the devil, and only beat the Cowboys and Niners because of said deal.
Sarcastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:19 PM   #83
AirGauge23
Sound the Charge
 
AirGauge23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Border
Posts: 3,916
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

Looks like his dad made the right decision.
AirGauge23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:24 PM   #84
bsyde82
Decent playground baller
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 355
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcastic
And yet that is all you are doing almost exclusively.

Keep hating. He'll keep winning Super Bowls.

so basically saying anything short of effusive praise for Eli makes me a hater.

Look, I think Eli is a great QB and like I said in my previous post, he earned my respect as one in that niner game.

Do you actually disagree with anything I wrote in terms of his streak of good fortune though?

Rodney Harrison, whose analytical skills you may or may not respect (irrelevant), said something that kind of encapsulates my frustration over the Eli praise. He said this is why I'd rather have Eli than Brady in the clutch. It's just so shallow b/c he completely papers over the drops that could've completely changed the game, drops that didn't happen on the other side of the ball. If Welker makes that catch, we'd be talking about Brady as the GOAT, and any Manning talk today would primarily be about Peyton.
bsyde82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:27 PM   #85
bsyde82
Decent playground baller
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 355
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcastic
Yea, apparently he is just a lucky bonehead that made a deal with the devil, and only beat the Cowboys and Niners because of said deal.

as an Eli supporter, you're incredibly defensive.

as a guy named Sarcastic, you ironically don't see the sarcasm in the popular joke that player X made a deal w/ the devil.
bsyde82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:32 PM   #86
Sarcastic
NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
 
Sarcastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Latvian Ladder
Posts: 25,064
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsyde82
so basically saying anything short of effusive praise for Eli makes me a hater.

Look, I think Eli is a great QB and like I said in my previous post, he earned my respect as one in that niner game.

Do you actually disagree with anything I wrote in terms of his streak of good fortune though?

Rodney Harrison, whose analytical skills you may or may not respect (irrelevant), said something that kind of encapsulates my frustration over the Eli praise. He said this is why I'd rather have Eli than Brady in the clutch. It's just so shallow b/c he completely papers over the drops that could've completely changed the game, drops that didn't happen on the other side of the ball. If Welker makes that catch, we'd be talking about Brady as the GOAT, and any Manning talk today would primarily be about Peyton.


So those are the only 2 options? Effusive praise or lucky bonehead that made a deal with the devil?

How about Brady making bonehead plays? He had plenty of time to get rid of the ball before the safety, yet stayed in the pocket and launched it away.

How about the interception? Throwing the ball towards Gronkowski whose on 1 leg, 60 yards down the field?

That Welker drop I think was just as much on Brady as it was on Welker. That's a hard fcking catch to make when you have to spin around like that.
Sarcastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:37 PM   #87
Sarcastic
NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
 
Sarcastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Latvian Ladder
Posts: 25,064
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsyde82
as an Eli supporter, you're incredibly defensive.

as a guy named Sarcastic, you ironically don't see the sarcasm in the popular joke that player X made a deal w/ the devil.


I would say it's more mildly defensive. Incredibly defensive would be like what Gisele did to the Patriots receivers and throwing them under the bus.

Believe me I understand the joke. Just don't really see it as very humorous.
Sarcastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:41 PM   #88
tpols
we already won
 
tpols's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 22,323
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

There was a decent amount of luck that allowed Eli's team to win that really had nothing to do with how good he or Brady were. Like.. Manningham's catch in double coverage versus Welker's drop in zero coverage. Both those passes were catchable balls with Welker's being the easier of the two yet things went in the opposite direction. nothing Brady could do if his guys were going to drop balls in the clutch all game.. Gronkowski looks like an all time great TE all year and then gets beat out on a critical jumpball by some linebacker. The QB only throws the ball, the other guys still have to catch it.
tpols is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:41 PM   #89
Sarcastic
NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
 
Sarcastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Latvian Ladder
Posts: 25,064
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

Speaking of deals with the devil, do we really think one wasn't made prior to this play?

Tuck rule
Sarcastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:46 PM   #90
bsyde82
Decent playground baller
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 355
Default Re: Gotta hand it to Eli. He's amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcastic
So those are the only 2 options? Effusive praise or lucky bonehead that made a deal with the devil?

How about Brady making bonehead plays? He had plenty of time to get rid of the ball before the safety, yet stayed in the pocket and launched it away.

How about the interception? Throwing the ball towards Gronkowski whose on 1 leg, 60 yards down the field?

That Welker drop I think was just as much on Brady as it was on Welker. That's a hard fcking catch to make when you have to spin around like that.

Not at all 2 options...it SEEMED like if I didn't give Eli effusive praise, I'm deemed a hater. In summary, my opinion on Eli is he's a great QB, not quite in the class of Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Peyton, but real good. Just not HOF NOW good. And the effusive praise coming his way currently, and it is effusive praise, is just a tad overblown, IMHO. And his run of good fortune is not a knock on his QB abilities, it's just an observation that I think deserves some notice when evaluating Eli, comparing him to Brady, etc etc.

Re: Brady's mistakes, why is this an attack on Brady now? I don't think I said Brady was flawless or anything? The welker catch, it can be debated. Tough catch for you or I? Sure. But a pro-bowl receiver makes that catch. Pretty similar to the catch Jimmy Graham made against the niners that he eventually took to the house. And the analysis I've heard on that catch was that Brady put it there so Welker wouldn't get blown up by Kenny Phillips.
bsyde82 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:


Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:43 AM.






NBA BASKETBALL FORUM KEY LINKS:

NBA Basketball

NBA Rumors

Basketball Blog

NBA Videos

Search Site

FOLLOW US
Twitter
Facebook
Instagram
YouTube
















Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy