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  1. #1
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    Default If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    Let's say you don't know who they are, know nothing about their respective status in the NBA.

    It's interesting for me, who watches both the NBA and Euroleague, to see how different the players look in these two different settings.

    Take the guards, for example. While Team USA still trounce everyone in transition, the paint is still crowded, as are the passing lanes and Kyrie's dribbling sometimes seems as exagerrated, while I feel nothing of the sort watching him in the NBA.

    Also, Rose looks far less imposing in FIBA ball. Him, Kyrie and Curry also seem small.

    Curry is one of my favourite players and yet, if I had seen him for the first time as a Team USA player, I would think of him as just another trigger happy PG, certainly not as the best shooter in the world.

    I would think Davis is by far the best player, together with Faried. Obviously wouldn't notice Drummond or Gay or Cousins.

    Also, guys in Team US travel all the time (first step) without the travels being called.

    While Team USA is probably the best on the tournament (Spain might be loaded, but they are a far cry behind their 2008 and 2012 edition), I think that this tournament and style of play puts to rest theories about how some of these guys would "destroy the Euroleague" and what not.

    Except for Durant and Melo and probably LBJ, can you really see any of these guys dominate team oriented, 40 minute-game, no-isolation basketball?

    Don't get me wrong, Curry, Kyrie, Rose (or Lillard for that matter) are the best guards in the world. But the style of play and the rotations in European club basketball is such that it does not favour their style.

    Take team Spain also as an example. A guy like Rubio looks completely useless in FIBA ball, while he is a great playmaker and lights out passer in the NBA. On the other hand, Sergio Rodrigez, while great in FIBA ball, is just average in the NBA at best. Navarro and Jasikevicius were also good cases of great players that were phenomenal in FIBA settting but struggled in the NBA.

    In such basketball, with far less space, crowded paints, clogged passing lanes, where coaches are gods and where you have to share the ball for 70% of the offense before giving it a go, where transition ball and iso ball are rare, where the best players play 25 minutes/game tops it's very difficult to judge individual capabilities.

    While there are players that transcend all that, like Durant, others would see their effectiveness diminished.

    What are your thoughts? Bear in mind I'm not Euroleague claiming Euroleague is better than the NBA, but there are valid points to be made about the difference in style and how that would affect the effectiveness of some players.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    I agree. That's why I say this:

    NBA finals > NBA playoffs > FIBA torny >>>>> NBA reg season

  3. #3
    Coach SamuraiSWISH's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by fandarko
    Let's say you don't know who they are, know nothing about their respective status in the NBA.

    It's interesting for me, who watches both the NBA and Euroleague, to see how different the players look in these two different settings.

    Take the guards, for example. While Team USA still trounce everyone in transition, the paint is still crowded, as are the passing lanes and Kyrie's dribbling sometimes seems as exagerrated, while I feel nothing of the sort watching him in the NBA.

    Also, Rose looks far less imposing in FIBA ball. Him, Kyrie and Curry also seem small.

    Curry is one of my favourite players and yet, if I had seen him for the first time as a Team USA player, I would think of him as just another trigger happy PG, certainly not as the best shooter in the world.

    I would think Davis is by far the best player, together with Faried. Obviously wouldn't notice Drummond or Gay or Cousins.

    Also, guys in Team US travel all the time (first step) without the travels being called.

    While Team USA is probably the best on the tournament (Spain might be loaded, but they are a far cry behind their 2008 and 2012 edition), I think that this tournament and style of play puts to rest theories about how some of these guys would "destroy the Euroleague" and what not.

    Except for Durant and Melo and probably LBJ, can you really see any of these guys dominate team oriented, 40 minute-game, no-isolation basketball?

    Don't get me wrong, Curry, Kyrie, Rose (or Lillard for that matter) are the best guards in the world. But the style of play and the rotations in European club basketball is such that it does not favour their style.

    Take team Spain also as an example. A guy like Rubio looks completely useless in FIBA ball, while he is a great playmaker and lights out passer in the NBA. On the other hand, Sergio Rodrigez, while great in FIBA ball, is just average in the NBA at best. Navarro and Jasikevicius were also good cases of great players that were phenomenal in FIBA settting but struggled in the NBA.

    In such basketball, with far less space, crowded paints, clogged passing lanes, where coaches are gods and where you have to share the ball for 70% of the offense before giving it a go, where transition ball and iso ball are rare, where the best players play 25 minutes/game tops it's very difficult to judge individual capabilities.

    While there are players that transcend all that, like Durant, others would see their effectiveness diminished.

    What are your thoughts? Bear in mind I'm not Euroleague claiming Euroleague is better than the NBA, but there are valid points to be made about the difference in style and how that would affect the effectiveness of some players.
    Very good post. And I agree with the vast majority of it, apart from the bolded.

    "probably LeBron"

    Um, what? He was by far our nation's best player in 2008, and especially 2012. Offensively, and defensively.

    2012: 13 ppg 6 rpg 6 apg 1 spg 1 bpg
    2008: 16 ppg 5 rpg 4 apg 2 spg 1 bpg

    FIBA ball is different. More congested lanes due to shorter three point line, more physicality. I enjoy, and co-sign the rest of your post. Only few American NBA superstars had their superstar ability translate to both professional versions of basketball in international competition.

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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    Honestly I'd be scared as fukk no matter what if I have to play LeBron in international ball

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64gmdA5oDdo

    ^^^

  5. #5
    #Dre Day in Sac Town andremiller07's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by fandarko


    What are your thoughts? Bear in mind I'm not Euroleague claiming Euroleague is better than the NBA, but there are valid points to be made about the difference in style and how that would affect the effectiveness of some players.
    You are one of his many alts but

  6. #6
    3-time NBA All-Star oarabbus's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    The reason guards seem small is because teams go big in FIBA. There's no defensive 3 so you can camp out in the paint all you like. That's what makes a team like Spain much better than just the names on paper.

    Pau and Marc get to camp in the lane and Pau surely plays better next to him, while Ibaka chills on the weak side a few feet from the hoop as long as he wants.. That's a nasty defense and the emphasis on big men completely changes the game.

    Cuirry's role isn't to launch 3s like he's capable of, so he doesn't do that. Anthony Davis will probably not be taking as many turnaround jumpers in the NBA season, but in FIBA as a skilled bigman he can play that game. Definitely lots of big differences.
    Last edited by oarabbus; 09-03-2014 at 02:38 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
    FIBA ball is different. More congested lanes due to shorter three point line, more physicality. I enjoy, and co-sign the rest of your post. Only few American NBA superstars had their superstar ability translate to both professional versions of basketball in international competition.
    There is an even deeper aspect to this, also very interesting.

    The development of players for such style of play.

    Take the guards for example. All superstar point guards in the NBA are the products of systems favoring their skills, especially in offense. High school, college and the NBA.

    In Europe, and that's not something that I like, they develop PGs to be pass-first, there is far less freedom in youth basketball and far more structure than it should be in my opinion.

    Guys like Curry, Irving, Lawson, Westbrook, Rose, Burke and other quality guards would probably never become what they currently are, if they were brought up in Europe.

    They would probably be considered too small to be scorers and shotmakers and would be developed as pass-first, industrial PGs, no chance in hell to become superstars. In Europe there is no college system for young guys to hone in their skills and jack shots until you mature and they start falling. If you are deemed good, at 19 you go straight to the pros, where they eternalize you on the bench in teams where EVERYONE in the rotation gets to play. Try to earn your minutes then.

    I think that dozens of talented guys dissapear every year owing to such a system. Young European players are taught great fundamentals, but what they lack is an opportunity to grow as players until they are 22-24, due to excessive professionalism.

    Take Lillard, for example. He needed his years in college to mature an become a superstar guard. Had he been forced to jump in the NBA as a freshman from college, would he had developped in the player he is today. No chance in hell. Well, this happens every year with scores of young talented Europeans.

    It wasn't quite like that 20 years ago. There was less athleticism, less money and agent influence, the stakes were lower, teams were allowed a maximum of two foreign players per team. Hence, they were forced to develop domestic young talent on all positions, whilst today you just buy an out-of college American PG for a couple thousand bucks and let him take care about bringing up the ball and playing defence. The emphasis is on winning and not developing talent in both Euroleague and Eurocup teams.

    They call it here a "crisis in the production of young players". I can assure you there is an incredible amount of talented kids, but the system is set so as to make most of them fail.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by oarabbus
    Cuirry's role isn't to launch 3s like he's capable of, so he doesn't do that. Anthony Davis will probably not be taking as many turnaround jumpers in the NBA season, but in FIBA as a skilled bigman he can play that game. Definitely lots of big differences.
    Curry's actually shooting quite a lot, but it's not falling (too early in the season I guess, so it's probably better for him this way).

    But as you say, it's not his role. This is exactly how it would look like in Euroleague/Eurocup setting. His role, as that of many of the NBA superstar point guards, would be greatly diminished. Since defense is much tougher for guards (for everyone for that matter) and there is much less space to operate, play for guards is stripped down to key skills - shooting, defense and passing. The latter is also valued differently than in the NBA, as only clean passes to scoring players are counted as assists (if the player puts in down on the floor and makes a two-step lay-in the pass is often not counted as an assist).

    As a guard, no matter how good you are, you play 25 minutes max. And that playing time involves much more sharing the ball, less touches and getting benched a couple of times, not because you are bad, but because the other guy gets to play too. That is not very conducive to creating alpha scoring mentality. You get to be a team player or you are out.

    I personally prefer a mixed bland of basketball, something like a cross between the NBA playoffs and the Euroleague. The latter is too strict and physical to my taste, since it stopped being a guards' game a long time ago, with the emergence of stretch bigs and 6-9 or 6-10 shooting wings all over the place.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    I think this to me shows me that no matter how much scouting is done, it still doesn't matter much until you actually play against someone/another team.

    the more one team becomes familiarize with another team, the better they know on how to match up and play. And this sometimes come directly from the players in terms of providing the feedback to their coaches.




    veterans.

  10. #10
    Bran Fam Member ImKobe's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    Last edited by ImKobe; 09-03-2014 at 07:00 AM.

  11. #11
    Local High School Star SpanishACB's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by fandarko
    (Spain might be loaded, but they are a far cry behind their 2008 and 2012 edition)
    I don't know man. Marc is better, Ibaka is better, Rodriguez is muuuch better...


    Don't get me wrong, Curry, Kyrie, Rose (or Lillard for that matter) are the best guards in the world.
    But they're being outplayed by a few guards in the World Cup, how does that compute?

    Sergio Rodrigez, while great in FIBA ball, is just average in the NBA at best.
    That's not the case. Rodriguez has become twice the player he was in the NBA whilst playing for Real Madrid, it's his own merit mind, as he learned to shoot. The NBA is a really hard league to get into, if you come from a different country and you don't land in a fitting franchise, it's going to be much harder for you than a kid who grew up in US and went through the NCCA.

    Navarro and Jasikevicius were also good cases of great players that were phenomenal in FIBA settting but struggled in the NBA.
    That's again selective. Navarro could have easily been Tony Parker (in a totally different playstyle, mind).

  12. #12
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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by fandarko
    There is an even deeper aspect to this, also very interesting.

    The development of players for such style of play.

    Take the guards for example. All superstar point guards in the NBA are the products of systems favoring their skills, especially in offense. High school, college and the NBA.

    In Europe, and that's not something that I like, they develop PGs to be pass-first, there is far less freedom in youth basketball and far more structure than it should be in my opinion.

    Guys like Curry, Irving, Lawson, Westbrook, Rose, Burke and other quality guards would probably never become what they currently are, if they were brought up in Europe.

    They would probably be considered too small to be scorers and shotmakers and would be developed as pass-first, industrial PGs, no chance in hell to become superstars. In Europe there is no college system for young guys to hone in their skills and jack shots until you mature and they start falling. If you are deemed good, at 19 you go straight to the pros, where they eternalize you on the bench in teams where EVERYONE in the rotation gets to play. Try to earn your minutes then.

    I think that dozens of talented guys dissapear every year owing to such a system. Young European players are taught great fundamentals, but what they lack is an opportunity to grow as players until they are 22-24, due to excessive professionalism.

    Take Lillard, for example. He needed his years in college to mature an become a superstar guard. Had he been forced to jump in the NBA as a freshman from college, would he had developped in the player he is today. No chance in hell. Well, this happens every year with scores of young talented Europeans.

    It wasn't quite like that 20 years ago. There was less athleticism, less money and agent influence, the stakes were lower, teams were allowed a maximum of two foreign players per team. Hence, they were forced to develop domestic young talent on all positions, whilst today you just buy an out-of college American PG for a couple thousand bucks and let him take care about bringing up the ball and playing defence. The emphasis is on winning and not developing talent in both Euroleague and Eurocup teams.

    They call it here a "crisis in the production of young players". I can assure you there is an incredible amount of talented kids, but the system is set so as to make most of them fail.
    5 star post *****

  13. #13
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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    Kyrie Irving is playing great and Curry is just missing shots he normally makes. Maybe it's the ball or that he playing harder on defense.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    I agree, but not to the extent of what you are saying. Players like a Curry would not be worse. Simply the coaching and the conditions he are placed in would be worse. However, this does not equate to take a superstar player out of the Euroleague and put him in the NBA and he should be better given the more stat friendly style of play.

    All this tournament really demonstrates is that coaching in other parts of the world needs to improve. The main reason coaches over there do not run more superstar styled offenses is because their simply is a lack of transcendent superstars. In the rare case they have one they dont know how to use them properly.

    The Spurs, Celtics, and even Heat all played team basketball to win their chips. Unsuccessful teams play iso ball like love on the wolves or harden on the rockets.

    And lets be serious...if u took any of these teams except possibly Spain...they are at best a non playoff level NBA team over a 82 game season with scouting, consistently being played against etc. Even if the NBA had to use Fiba rules it wouldnt change that.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: If you've seen Team USA players for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by sundizz
    And lets be serious...if u took any of these teams except possibly Spain...they are at best a non playoff level NBA team over a 82 game season with scouting, consistently being played against etc. Even if the NBA had to use Fiba rules it wouldnt change that.
    Sorry, but under FIBA rules, all the major national teams on this tournament plus a few absent are NBA playoff teams and contenders.

    This Team USA is stronger than any NBA team, just look at the names.

    You mean you honestly believe that under Fiba rules, the Spurs beat Spain in best of seven series? No chance in hell.

    Put Turkey against, say, OKC, do you really believe they wouldn't play even?

    C-mon.

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