Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > NBA Team Forums > Toronto Raptors Forum

Toronto Raptors Forum Toronto Raptors message board - Toronto Raptors forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-04-2009, 10:20 AM   #46
Raps4Life
Let's Go Raptors!
 
Raps4Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 439
Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
Bryan Colangelo was brought in to make MLSE money and he has been doing a great job of it. This is what Colangelo is trying to do. Winning a championship would clearly help that but he's not going to go all out and take more silly risks to get there while the cash is still coming in.

IMO, Colangelo would rather have an entertaining and likable team than a solid winning one. I bet if the choice came up to mold the Raptors into either his old Amare-Marion-Nash Phoenix teams or the recent championship Spurs teams, Phoenix would be the more desirable scenario for Colangelo. To me this is evident by the constant attempts at a fast-break team (bringing in Ford, Triano over Mitchell, preaching running, Marion) as well as his infatuation with unorthodox lineups (Bosh/Bargnani).

Colangelo probably knows that Bosh/Bargnani at PF/C will not get you a title but I doubt he cares. Get some better pieces around them and you have a likable team that should make the playoffs consistently, be entertaining and keep the people in the seats and the money rolling in. I'm still shocked Anthony Parker wasn't traded at the deadline for even a low 1st round pick. That would've been the smart move for the long run. But the Raptors have to maintain the illusion of trying to get to the playoffs this year or the people will stop coming. Parker also fits with building a likable team.

I'm generally a rational person so I understand that the point of all of this is to make money. That's why Colangelo was brought in. But being a hardcore sports fan is not exactly a rational thing. As a sports fan, I want the Raptors to become a title contender. But getting out of sports fan mode, I can easily envision the Raptors being a treadmill team for years to come and management/ownership being perfectly fine it as long as the Raptors continue to make money.


Oh and also, Bargnani an All-Star? How is that going to happen? Howard has the East starting C spot locked up for as long as he in the conference. Then you have other young C's who are, IMO, already better than Bargnani like Okafor, Horford, Lopez and maybe Bogut. Maybe when KG retires, Bosh is traded to the West putting Bargnani at PF and hopefully no good PF's are drafted into the East during that time.

I have to disagree. I think the trade to bring O'Neal to this team was a risk, one that didn't work, but a risk. And if you're looking to build a "likeable" team, do you bring in a guy that was said to be a distraction while in Indiana and one who was suspended for fighting fans? Doesn't seem to fit the "clean-cut" image that you think Colangelo is trying to build.

I'm always perplexed by the comments of people who "think" they know what Colangelo is trying to do. I could accept some of those comments if the person commenting had 5, 10, even 1 year of NBA general manager experience. However, it's coming from people in their basement that because they read Doug Smith's blog feel they have inside information.

I think it will be interesting to see what Colangelo does between now and training camp next year. The argument that the Leafs and Raptors are only in it to make money is getting SO old. Sometimes teams fall short in their attempt of championship. Actually 29 do every year.

Last edited by Raps4Life : 03-04-2009 at 11:39 AM.
Raps4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2009, 11:45 AM   #47
b4ball
Local High School Star
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,146
Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps4Life
I have to disagree. I think the trade to bring O'Neal to this team was a risk, one that didn't work, but a risk. And if you're looking to build a "likeable" team, do you bring in a guy that was said to be a distraction while in Indiana and one who was suspended for fighting fans? Doesn't seem to fit the "clean-cut" image that you think Colangelo is trying to build.

I'm always perplexed by the comments of people who "think" they know what Colangelo is trying to do. I could accept some of those comments if the person commenting had 5, 10, even 1 year of NBA general manager experience. However, it's coming from people in their basement that because they read Doug Smith's blog feel they have inside information.

I think it will be interesting to see what Colangelo does between now and training camp next year. The argument that the Leafs and Raptors are only in it to make money is getting SO old. Sometimes teams fall short in their attempt of championship. Actually 29 do every year.

+1.
b4ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2009, 12:36 PM   #48
b4ball
Local High School Star
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,146
Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.M.G.
Uhhhh, 3 second rule? No center can just camp in the paint. In halfcourt sets the team runs isolation plays for Bosh to allow him to drive and create, it's not that hard. JO could have prvided this if he wasn't always looking for his own offence. I like what JO brought, but we need a shot-blocker/rebounder/post-defender who doesn't care about his stats, letting Bosh stat stuff away. Again, kind of like Kendrick Perkins, except not a serial killer. Then procure a quality scoring/defensive SG, possibly by trading Bargnani.

I'm getting concerned that they're starting to think about gearing this team to be entirely a fastbreak team, which would reduce Bosh's effectivenessand pretty much force him to leave in FA. You need to find a balance between fastbreak/outlet-passes and halfcourt. Our two best players are Bosh and Marion, one of whom excels on the fastbreak, one of whom is a halfcourt weapon. It's up to Mr. Calderon and hopefully a new coach to make that work next year (assuming we get an established coach and Marion stays).

People say that without Bargnani we'd have a hole at center, which is somewhat true because it's hella hard to find any decent centers, but Bargs doesn't give you what a center is supposed to anyways. I mean he's improving in these areas, but will he be strong enough and tough enough by the time Bosh is a free agent? Probably not. And then we're stuck with Bargs as the franchise for the near future........ which could turn out better than I'm picturing it in my mind, the kid has shown flashes.

The three second rule does nothing to prevent a centre from occupying the paint. One step out and back in and that step out does not mean the paint has been cleared of "debris" that makes Bosh's drive available. You say JO got in his way, I say that's what centers do, no fault of JO for playing his game. How was JO supposed to get rebounds if he had to stay away from the paint? And rebounds were what we wanted from him, needed from him. Does Bosh's game prevent us from having those opportunities?

Bargnani is strong enough. And what is it that you’re expecting a centre to bring that Bargnani does not?

And, why does Bargnani have to become the "franchise" player? Bargnani is not looking to take over this team, he just wants to play the game. He does not want to replace Bosh, and I'm not looking for him to do that. Why are you?

You also say we would be stuck with Bargnani. How is it that you have a centre that is very good and can dominate most other centers in the league, one that is young and still learning, one that we all knew would take time to develop (even if we didn't want to admit that) and one that has proven to be durable. One that won't require a max contract. How could that be a bad thing?

Some want to trade Bargnani for a wing that can play beside Bosh. But why does that wing have to play beside Bosh? Bosh is very good, but does he have what it takes to take this team deep into the playoffs. I like Bosh but I have not seen that intensity and determination to take us there, let alone lead a team there, and that's what a franchise player need's to do. Most importantly, Bosh's salary dictates that he be the franchise player. And yes I know that D12 is not the highest paid player on his team, Lewis is and nobody would consider Lewis as the franchise player. But comparisons can't be made between these teams, or at least I can't.

I'm not saying one or the other has to go. I hope BC can make something happen this summer, bring a couple pieces in that put the puzzle together. I still think that Bosh and Bargnani can play together. Does BC have the acumen or enough money / recourses to put it together is the question.

And if he can't put it together, I would keep Bargnani.

Last edited by b4ball : 03-04-2009 at 12:42 PM.
b4ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2009, 01:02 PM   #49
Qwyjibo
Yankee.Hotel.Foxtrot
 
Qwyjibo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,790
Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4ball
Q, you know better then to say that D12 has the All Star position all sewn up. All Star position are not given out by position.
I'm not following you there. He does have it locked down. He is going to get voted in every year (not like he doesn't deserve it) which takes one C spot away from other potential All-Stars right off the bat. You're right in that the "guard" and "forward" spots don't really discriminate between PG, SG and SF, PF when it comes to selections.
Qwyjibo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2009, 02:44 PM   #50
Valliant13
NBA lottery pick
 
Valliant13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,023
Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
I'm not following you there. He does have it locked down. He is going to get voted in every year (not like he doesn't deserve it) which takes one C spot away from other potential All-Stars right off the bat. You're right in that the "guard" and "forward" spots don't really discriminate between PG, SG and SF, PF when it comes to selections.

He could get injured and not be able to play.
Valliant13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2009, 04:08 PM   #51
A.M.G.
Dr. Chim Richalds
 
A.M.G.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: plane of pure scrumtrulesence
Posts: 3,596
Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni
Those players might be better than Bargnani defensively (Not by Much) and offensively none of them can even touch him. I don't think it's unrealistic to say that he can't be an allstar next year at center. Especially if he can put up 18-6 consistently. Does anyone else think the above players are better than Andrea?

NOTE: After the game tonight I'm starting to acknowledge that SG is the main deficiency with this team. Enough of Bargnani and Bosh, they played great and scored 25+ with 7 REB each and at least 2 BPG. Marion was solid and brought 18-10 with 3 STL on 50%. Calderon was a great distributor with 16 APG.

Then we have AP. 1/8 for 3 points. I've been noticing a trend with Parker. Whenever he scores more than 15 points we usually win the game, because we can always bank on our top 4 players being fairly consistent with their productivity. This needs to be the number one priority this summer, my opinion for the rebounding post stays, but maybe more of a bench presence for next season. I think we still need one more season to assess what the duo of Bosh and Bargnani can do, because the lack of production from the SG spot is crippling this team. Does everyone agree?

+ Kapono 3/11 for 7 points.
+ Banks DNP.
That's 10 million follars of our payroll!? COMMON.

I would love for us to somehow trade up and get James Harden..
Good points, the main problems with our is our lack of a starting calibre SG, and our lack of the good depth that helped us the two seasons before this. Having Voskuhl and O'Bryant as our primary back up big men is death. I guess Joey gets alot of minutes at PF, and he's really improved, but it's not enough. Even Hump is pretty scrubby. It would be a godsend if we were able to re-sign Rasho to back up Bargs, and dump Voskuhl.

It is essential that we find a way to move Kapono, and preferably Marcus Banks as well. They are getting the money to be major bench contributors, but they clearly aren't. Those two terrible contracts are weighing us down. If Banks works himself into the rotation and can be a stable back up to Jose that would be good, but Kapono has definitively demonstrated that he will never earn the money he is getting.

Here's hoping we pick someone good in the draft. Every loss gets us closer to Harden, think of it that way. Failing that, we have to find someone who can contribute more consistently than the aging AP. I love the guy, but he old.
A.M.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2009, 04:21 PM   #52
SESSEL15
High School Starter
 
SESSEL15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 843
Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps4Life
Nope. This next contract he signs will probably be the most important for him for financial security. He's going to try to get all he can get. If he was six or seven years older and saw the championship window closing, maybe.

Good point, I didn't look at it that way.
SESSEL15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2009, 05:19 PM   #53
DJMason
High School JV MVP
 
DJMason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 694
Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps4Life
I have to disagree. I think the trade to bring O'Neal to this team was a risk, one that didn't work, but a risk. And if you're looking to build a "likeable" team, do you bring in a guy that was said to be a distraction while in Indiana and one who was suspended for fighting fans? Doesn't seem to fit the "clean-cut" image that you think Colangelo is trying to build.

I'm always perplexed by the comments of people who "think" they know what Colangelo is trying to do. I could accept some of those comments if the person commenting had 5, 10, even 1 year of NBA general manager experience. However, it's coming from people in their basement that because they read Doug Smith's blog feel they have inside information.

I think it will be interesting to see what Colangelo does between now and training camp next year. The argument that the Leafs and Raptors are only in it to make money is getting SO old. Sometimes teams fall short in their attempt of championship. Actually 29 do every year.

+10

I don't see why its so hard to accept that Colangelo actually believes that a Phoenix-style team could win a championship. Is he wrong? Most likely, but to pretend that you somehow "know" what he's thinking is arrogant and foolish. Besides, the Leafs will sell out each and every night with a minor-league squad (some might argue we have one now) but Toronto fans are generally fickle and don't think for a minute that they won't drop the Raptors like a bad habbit given a few more seasons like this. All you have to do is look at the Bluejays for proof of that.

Oh and I'm also sick of TO fans that feel like their somehow above having a team the calibur of the Suns a few years back when the best damn record this team has EVER had is 47 wins, and they've only once gotten out of the first round. Please do everyone a favor and pull you're head out of your @$$.
DJMason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 06:25 AM   #54
Pistol Pete
Who Dat? Geaux Saints!
 
Pistol Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,066
Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJMason
Oh and I'm also sick of TO fans that feel like their somehow above having a team the calibur of the Suns a few years back when the best damn record this team has EVER had is 47 wins, and they've only once gotten out of the first round. Please do everyone a favor and pull you're head out of your @$$.

I'd rather wait another 5 years of watching a lottery team if it meant we'd win an NBA title then watch 5 years of "exciting" Phoenix Suns style basketball where we get bounced in the playoffs every year.

As a fan, you should always demand that your team is doing it's best to contend for a title, I think it's been sufficiently proven that you can't win an NBA title while avoiding defense (Sacramento Kings failed, Phoenix Suns failed, Golden State Warriors are failing).

It's not that anyone is above watching an enjoyable team, but fans have every right to criticize management worrying more about their bottom line rather then the overall competitive level of the team.
Pistol Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 10:16 AM   #55
T-Low
College superstar
 
T-Low's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,661
Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

We need to do something serious soon. Because to be honest, time IS a factor. We have so many expirers this season. You guys might not think they are important but our future depends on every single season...
T-Low is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2009, 01:40 PM   #56
bada bing
College star
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,227
Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJMason
+10

I don't see why its so hard to accept that Colangelo actually believes that a Phoenix-style team could win a championship. Is he wrong? Most likely, but to pretend that you somehow "know" what he's thinking is arrogant and foolish. Besides, the Leafs will sell out each and every night with a minor-league squad (some might argue we have one now) but Toronto fans are generally fickle and don't think for a minute that they won't drop the Raptors like a bad habbit given a few more seasons like this. All you have to do is look at the Bluejays for proof of that.

Oh and I'm also sick of TO fans that feel like their somehow above having a team the calibur of the Suns a few years back when the best damn record this team has EVER had is 47 wins, and they've only once gotten out of the first round. Please do everyone a favor and pull you're head out of your @$$.

i haven't agreed with 70% of what you have been preaching on this forum except this time. This is an exception.

I am sure BC knows that raptor fans are giving him a chance and if this team continues to fizzle and barely make the playoffs the fans will stay away. The bluejays are the best example of this.

The problem isn't BC. THe problem is MSG and the ownership of the leafs and the raptors. They are in it for the money. They will never allow BC or the raps or the leafs to go beyond the limits to get a championship team. BC has done a great job by getting european players, hence increasing the marketability of this team around the world...but if this team is not winning, this will fade fast. BC knows that and he will do his best to get a winning team in here.
bada bing is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:42 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy