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Old 02-12-2013, 03:17 PM   #61
LamarOdom
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Default Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
I would assume documented proof. The cover up of child sex abuse by the Catholic Church is no secret, no matter how badly you want to turn a blind eye to it. It's been a problem for as long as the institution has been around, it's just gotten more press in modern times.

Like I said, I haven't seen it yet. But I think it's re-airing sometime this week on HBO. You should watch it, try to put the blind faith aside while you do.

I'll look when it airs and try to catch it but it haven't even gained that much exposure now I would assume the catholic church has been through bigger scandals why would this one make him abdicate? it just sounds to far fetched.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:20 PM   #62
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Default Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Originally Posted by BrickingStar
Assuming he resigned over a documentary that isn't viral and already aired is complete bias against him. You think they're talking about it there in europe?

It might be that there is more information coming out as a result of the documentary's investigation into the matter. You have to remember that this particular case is just one of many worldwide scandals by the Catholic Church. Ratzinger was right in the middle of many of them (Example). Could be that he's trying to save face (for himself, the church, and the papacy) by stepping down.

You can't seriously believe that he's the first pope to step down in 600 years because his strength is gone. John Paul II was pope when he was old and far more feeble than Ratz, until he took his last breath. Which has been the case for again 600 years. But Ratz is stepping down because he can't bench press as much as he did last week and you buy that?

Guess I have to remember that blind faith and critical thinking are mutually exclusive.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:32 PM   #63
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Default Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
It might be that there is more information coming out as a result of the documentary's investigation into the matter. You have to remember that this particular case is just one of many worldwide scandals by the Catholic Church. Ratzinger was right in the middle of many of them (Example). Could be that he's trying to save face (for himself, the church, and the papacy) by stepping down.

You can't seriously believe that he's the first pope to step down in 600 years because his strength is gone. John Paul II was pope when he was old and far more feeble than Ratz, until he took his last breath. Which has been the case for again 600 years. But Ratz is stepping down because he can't bench press as much as he did last week and you buy that?

Guess I have to remember that blind faith and critical thinking are mutually exclusive.
I'm agnostic if you're trying to categorize me with the bold. The pope is 86.Until recently popes didn't "generally" travel around behind bullet proof glass. Times change. People live longer these days so we now have very many very old people...and popes. These men can no longer hide behind dozens of supporters; there are cameras everywhere and televised speeches expected. Most importantly modern medicine provides a suite of cognitive tests that can identify the early signs of dementia, and give you a heads up when you are still lucid enough to understand the diagnosis or in other words notice the cognitives signes before cognitive decline before being diagnosed with something like Alzheimer's. You act like you're 86 and know what it's like to give much energy at his age. Certainly I don't share your bias or in other words like you said "blind faith" to assume that such a conspiracy is the reason he resigned over human nature.

Last edited by BrickingStar : 02-12-2013 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:35 PM   #64
DonDadda59
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Default Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

What'd I tell you?

From a few hours ago:
Pope Benedict resigns: sex abuse survivors hope move eases prosecution
Victims and their advocates – who hold pontiff responsible for covering up abuse – push forward with international legal cases


Before he became the pope, Cardinal Ratzinger headed the organisation responsible for dealing with abuse cases. Photograph: Paul White/AP

Victims of the child sex abuse crisis that has engulfed the Catholic church during Pope Benedict's tenure welcomed his unexpected resignation on Monday, amid speculation over what prompted his departure.

Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (Snap), an organisation of 12,000 members worldwide, claim Benedict is personally responsible for widespread abuse within the church because he chose to protect its reputation over the safety of children. US lawyers who are currently suing the pontiff and other high-ranking Holy See officials for systematically concealing sexual crimes around the world, said his resignation may lead to more international prosecutions.

David Clohessy, executive director of Snap, condemned the pope's "terrible record" on child sex abuse and said he hoped he would "finally show some courageous leadership on the abuse crisis" in his remaining days.

Clohessy told the Guardian: "Before he became pope his predecessor put him in charge of the abuse crisis. He has read thousands of pages of reports of the abuse cases from across the world. He knows more about clergy sex crimes and cover-ups than anyone else in the church yet he has done precious little to protect children."

He said a big question for the pope's successor is "what he will do in a very tangible way to safeguard children, deter cover-ups, punish enablers and chart a new course. What matters is not whether a statement is unprecedented but whether an action is affected."

Clohessy cited the example of 30 US bishops who have posted the names of predator priests on their diocese websites. He said that a new pontiff should require bishops to do that and to work to reform secular laws governing abuse "so that predators from every walk of life faces justice".

Cardinal Sean O Malley, of Boston, one of five cardinals who lead the US archdiocese, has published a list of 159 priests and deacons accused of abusing children, on the Boston archdiocese website.

Before he was pope, the then-Cardinal Ratzinger headed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the organisation responsible for dealing with abuse cases.

The Vatican has cited nonspecific health concerns as the reason for Benedict's resignation, the first in the church in almost 600 years, but the unexpected and sudden nature of the announcement has prompted widespread speculation over the reasons.

Bill McMurry, a lawyer from Kentucky who has sued the Vatican for sexual abuse allegations going back as far as 1928, said: "The world is stunned. We don't see in the history of the papal world a pope stand down. It makes you wonder what's going on."

McMurry said he personally holds Benedict responsible for "decades" of cover-up of the sex abuse scandal, during which time bishops were instructed to send paedophile priests from one district to another.

"It is a good day when a bad pope or a bad leader of your religion steps aside," he said.

McMurry said he believed Benedict was appointed to the papacy in part because he had kept the sex abuse scandal at bay to protect the reputation of the church.

"We have seen documentations. We know that this is the role that Benedict played, and he did a terrific job of containing a scandal until it could be contained no more and it exploded."

"It is hard for me to accept that Benedict would step down. Unless there was a potential scandal that we will never know about that was bargained away. There's a lot of skull-duggery here. It just doesn't add up" he said.

The Center for Constitutional Rights, which filed a case against the pope last year at the International Criminal Court on behalf of Snap, said his departure would make international prosecution easier, both in its case at the ICC and other, potential prosecutions, because it will remove the immunity given to him as a head of state.

In a statement, the CRR said: "This pope is responsible for rape and other sexual violence around the world, both through his exercise of superior responsibility and through his direct involvement in the cover up of specific crimes. Tens of thousands of victims, most of them children, continue to suffer because he has placed the reputation of the church above the safety of its members. His resignation will make international prosecution easier for national systems of justice that still grant immunity to current heads of state."

Pam Spees, an attorney for CCR, said that since it had filed the suit in 2011, Snap has been contacted by survivors from 65 countries.

"We have seen a welling up of survivors coming together in different countries to demand accountability," said Spees. "With respect to ICC, there was never any legal hurdles because he was head of state. But there were plenty of political hurdles to doing that. The fact that he is not any more should remove those political hurdles. He could also be more exposed to civil suits and criminal investigations at a national level."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...buse-survivors

But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon the housetops.

-Luke 12:2-3
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:39 PM   #65
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Default Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
What'd I tell you?

From a few hours ago:
Pope Benedict resigns: sex abuse survivors hope move eases prosecution
Victims and their advocates – who hold pontiff responsible for covering up abuse – push forward with international legal cases


Before he became the pope, Cardinal Ratzinger headed the organisation responsible for dealing with abuse cases. Photograph: Paul White/AP

Victims of the child sex abuse crisis that has engulfed the Catholic church during Pope Benedict's tenure welcomed his unexpected resignation on Monday, amid speculation over what prompted his departure.

Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (Snap), an organisation of 12,000 members worldwide, claim Benedict is personally responsible for widespread abuse within the church because he chose to protect its reputation over the safety of children. US lawyers who are currently suing the pontiff and other high-ranking Holy See officials for systematically concealing sexual crimes around the world, said his resignation may lead to more international prosecutions.

David Clohessy, executive director of Snap, condemned the pope's "terrible record" on child sex abuse and said he hoped he would "finally show some courageous leadership on the abuse crisis" in his remaining days.

Clohessy told the Guardian: "Before he became pope his predecessor put him in charge of the abuse crisis. He has read thousands of pages of reports of the abuse cases from across the world. He knows more about clergy sex crimes and cover-ups than anyone else in the church yet he has done precious little to protect children."

He said a big question for the pope's successor is "what he will do in a very tangible way to safeguard children, deter cover-ups, punish enablers and chart a new course. What matters is not whether a statement is unprecedented but whether an action is affected."

Clohessy cited the example of 30 US bishops who have posted the names of predator priests on their diocese websites. He said that a new pontiff should require bishops to do that and to work to reform secular laws governing abuse "so that predators from every walk of life faces justice".

Cardinal Sean O Malley, of Boston, one of five cardinals who lead the US archdiocese, has published a list of 159 priests and deacons accused of abusing children, on the Boston archdiocese website.

Before he was pope, the then-Cardinal Ratzinger headed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the organisation responsible for dealing with abuse cases.

The Vatican has cited nonspecific health concerns as the reason for Benedict's resignation, the first in the church in almost 600 years, but the unexpected and sudden nature of the announcement has prompted widespread speculation over the reasons.

Bill McMurry, a lawyer from Kentucky who has sued the Vatican for sexual abuse allegations going back as far as 1928, said: "The world is stunned. We don't see in the history of the papal world a pope stand down. It makes you wonder what's going on."

McMurry said he personally holds Benedict responsible for "decades" of cover-up of the sex abuse scandal, during which time bishops were instructed to send paedophile priests from one district to another.

"It is a good day when a bad pope or a bad leader of your religion steps aside," he said.

McMurry said he believed Benedict was appointed to the papacy in part because he had kept the sex abuse scandal at bay to protect the reputation of the church.

"We have seen documentations. We know that this is the role that Benedict played, and he did a terrific job of containing a scandal until it could be contained no more and it exploded."

"It is hard for me to accept that Benedict would step down. Unless there was a potential scandal that we will never know about that was bargained away. There's a lot of skull-duggery here. It just doesn't add up" he said.

The Center for Constitutional Rights, which filed a case against the pope last year at the International Criminal Court on behalf of Snap, said his departure would make international prosecution easier, both in its case at the ICC and other, potential prosecutions, because it will remove the immunity given to him as a head of state.

In a statement, the CRR said: "This pope is responsible for rape and other sexual violence around the world, both through his exercise of superior responsibility and through his direct involvement in the cover up of specific crimes. Tens of thousands of victims, most of them children, continue to suffer because he has placed the reputation of the church above the safety of its members. His resignation will make international prosecution easier for national systems of justice that still grant immunity to current heads of state."

Pam Spees, an attorney for CCR, said that since it had filed the suit in 2011, Snap has been contacted by survivors from 65 countries.

"We have seen a welling up of survivors coming together in different countries to demand accountability," said Spees. "With respect to ICC, there was never any legal hurdles because he was head of state. But there were plenty of political hurdles to doing that. The fact that he is not any more should remove those political hurdles. He could also be more exposed to civil suits and criminal investigations at a national level."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...buse-survivors

But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon the housetops.

-Luke 12:2-3
What exactly does this prove or tell us things we didn't already know?
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:47 PM   #66
LamarOdom
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Default Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Originally Posted by BrickingStar
What exactly does this prove or tell us things we didn't already know?

Exactly what I was going to say, only thing it tells me is that David Clohessy the executive director of Snap is saying....

Quote:
Clohessy told the Guardian: "Before he became pope his predecessor put him in charge of the abuse crisis. He has read thousands of pages of reports of the abuse cases from across the world. He knows more about clergy sex crimes and cover-ups than anyone else in the church yet he has done precious little to protect children."

This is a guy who totally hates the Pope and why would he know information such as this? this like something only the highest of the highest in the Vatican should know.

No this is just speculations which is something we'll always see when big events such as this happens but this is just reaching, no proof whatsoever.

The pope is a good man and until further proof comes it will still be my beliefs.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:53 AM   #67
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Default Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

I know its almost an impossibility but I hope Cardinal Dolan gets chosen as the new pope simply for my personal amusement.

That would be too epic...
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:04 AM   #68
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:13 AM   #69
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Default Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

I cant blame the pope for wanting to retire.

If my boss never showed up to work, I wouldnt have any motivation either.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:22 AM   #70
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Default Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Originally Posted by ClutchOver9000
I know its almost an impossibility but I hope Cardinal Dolan gets chosen as the new pope simply for my personal amusement.

That would be too epic...


He's hilarious. I went to Easter mass last year at St. Patrick Cathedral in NYC. He comes across almost as an Irish stereotype. I could definitely see him in a bar swilling Guiness and whiskey, telling off color jokes and cursing like a sailor.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:21 PM   #71
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Default Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

Funny to see how differently you guys in the US see things.

There is absolutely no doubt here in Italy that BXVI did not abdicate because of whatever "secret report/documentary" you guys are babbling about.
(The alleged "sex scandal" is water under the bridge. Actually Ratzinger has been one of the most active Popes against pedophilia in the Church - which, with all due respect to actual victims and their suffering, remains a statistical nullity).

JPII was in the saddle, despite his illness, until he died... because everyone in the Vatican was with him and he could trust ALL of his cooperators.
This is probably not the case for BXVI; there is a very well-known clash between two factions in the Vatican, one which is faithful to Ratzinger (guided by the president of Italian Episcopes, cardinal Angelo Bagnasco) and one which is not (led by the Vatican State Secretary, cardinal Tarcisio Bertone).

This is the most common line of thought among vaticanists.
I am not saying I agree with it, but it seems reasonable.
Certainly much more than an HBO documentary


As concerns the next Conclave...
If the above interpretation of BXVI's abdication is correct, then it is to be expected that Ratzinger also did it so as to let his "faction" hold the keys to the elections.
(And no, Dolan is not really a strong candidate... no US cardinal really is, understandably).

Last edited by Jasi : 02-13-2013 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:47 PM   #72
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Default Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

Interesting Jasi. Are you a Catholic?

Also, what does Andrea Bargnagni think about all this?
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:55 PM   #73
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Default Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
Interesting Jasi. Are you a Catholic?

Also, what does Andrea Bargnagni think about all this?

1) Yes.
2) As far as I know he hasn't issued any official statement on the matter, despite the remarkable anticipation from all cardinals and vaticanists. It's spelled Bargnani by the way.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:12 PM   #74
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Default Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasi
Funny to see how differently you guys in the US see things.

There is absolutely no doubt here in Italy that BXVI did not abdicate because of whatever "secret report/documentary" you guys are babbling about.
(The alleged "sex scandal" is water under the bridge. Actually Ratzinger has been one of the most active Popes against pedophilia in the Church - which, with all due respect to actual victims and their suffering, remains a statistical nullity).

JPII was in the saddle, despite his illness, until he died... because everyone in the Vatican was with him and he could trust ALL of his cooperators.
This is probably not the case for BXVI; there is a very well-known clash between two factions in the Vatican, one which is faithful to Ratzinger (guided by the president of Italian Episcopes, cardinal Angelo Bagnasco) and one which is not (led by the Vatican State Secretary, cardinal Tarcisio Bertone).

This is the most common line of thought among vaticanists.
I am not saying I agree with it, but it seems reasonable.
Certainly much more than an HBO documentary


As concerns the next Conclave...
If the above interpretation of BXVI's abdication is correct, then it is to be expected that Ratzinger also did it so as to let his "faction" hold the keys to the elections.
(And no, Dolan is not really a strong candidate... no US cardinal really is, understandably).

Exactly. It's that old american thinking that they influence everything.
HBO documentary. It does not mean anything to catholics around the world, let alone the Cardinals in the Vatican (some probably don't even know what HBO is).
Of couse I feel sorry for victims of those sick priests (and even one case is already a shame for the Church). But like you said, it's statistical nullity. 99% of priests have never been accused of anything.
Studies by Charol Shakeshaft commissioned by the United States Department of Education show that abuse in schools are 100 times worse than by priests.
Another study (became a book) by non Catholic Penn State Professor Philip Jenkins show that:
Statistically, of all the professions, Christian clergy are least likely to offend. Doctors, Farmers and Teachers are the professions most likely to abuse children–not clergy;
Among clergy offenders Catholic priests are least likely to offend.

But of course those won't get much press cause the anti-catholic bias is so big in some countries that you have people claiming Ratzinger was a Nazi (when even an anti-catholic like Bill Maher apologized for calling him a Nazi). Ratzinger like every german boy had to join the Hitler Youth and later join the army. He deserted and has never written or said anything pro nazism in his entire life (actuallu he has written against it several times).

Links:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/arc...0/apr/10040101
http://www.amazon.com/Pedophiles-Pri...621241-6611257
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