Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 26
  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    5,418

    Arrow Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    The teams that LeBron James has played on have a 2-4 record in the NBA Finals. James has as many series losses in the Finals as Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant and Larry Bird combined.

    But does that record provide a fair verdict on James’ performance in the NBA Finals? Below, ESPN’s Stats & Information Group analyzes his body of work in the NBA Finals from various angles.

    Looking at expectations, opponents and supporting casts

    Based on the pre-playoff projections of ESPN’s Basketball Power Index, James’ teams were expected to make four Finals appearances and win two titles in 10 playoff appearances (including this season). So, even though James’ teams are 2-4 in the Finals, he has met expectations for titles won and exceeded them for Finals appearances.

    Elo Ratings, recently released by FiveThirtyEight, allow us to measure the relative strength of every team in NBA history after every game, based on scoring margin and game site. By this measure, James’ teams have been favored in two of his six Finals appearances.

    This season’s Warriors were the third-best team in Finals history, based on Elo Ratings.

    The 2011 Heat lost to the Dallas Mavericks despite being two spots higher in pre-Finals Elo ratings, and the 2012 Heat beat the Oklahoma City Thunder as the Elo underdog.

    In James’ four Finals losses, he has been flanked by three of the eight worst supporting casts in the last 31 NBA Finals, as measured by the Statistical Plus/Minus of the talent of the teammates of a club’s best player, effective through a given season’s conference finals.

    Looking for support
    The ranks of LeBron James' "supporting casts" among teams in the last 31 NBA Finals

    RESULT
    2015 58th Lost
    2014 53rd Lost
    2013 38th Won
    2012 21st Won
    2011 10th Lost
    2007 59th Lost
    *According to FiveThirtyEight
    This statistic, created by FiveThirtyEight, also takes into account the minutes played by particular teammates and how important each game is for a team’s title chances.

    During his two Finals losses with the Cavaliers, James had the second- and third-worst supporting casts in these 31 Finals. The only team with a worse supporting cast for its best player in these 31 Finals was the 1999 New York Knicks, who are the only eighth seed to reach the NBA Finals. By contrast, Jordan played with three of the six best supporting casts during his three-peat from 1996 to 1998.

    James played with the eighth-worst supporting cast in an NBA Finals of the last 31 seasons in 2014, yet he carried a worse supporting cast to the Finals this season.

    Comparing to other all-time greats

    James’ 2-4 record in the Finals pales in comparison to Jordan’s 6-0 or Bill Russell’s 11-1.

    But, given James’ supporting cast and opposition in the Finals, the fact he took his team this far and won two games against the Warriors is a feat in itself. So how can we compare James’ Finals record to that of other NBA greats, given the relative strength and expectations of each of the teams that they played for?

    For the analysis below, we pulled the Elo Ratings for each team to make the NBA Finals before the series began, accounted for home-court advantage and projected each team’s pre-Finals chance of winning.

    This breakdown compares James to other NBA MVPs who appeared in five or more Finals, to get a decent sample size. It is important to note that this is based on pre-Finals projections, but at times the fact a team even made it to the Finals (think the 2007 Cavaliers) is an accomplishment in itself.

    It should be no surprise that Russell, who won 11 titles in 12 Finals appearances from 1957 to 1969, is the greatest Finals overachiever. Russell’s Celtics were heavy favorites in almost all of those series (they had an average of a 74 percent chance to win across his Finals), so his teams should have won about nine titles.

    Like Russell, Jordan played on some all-time great teams, but even the best teams are not expected to be undefeated in the Finals. Jordan’s Bulls had on average a 69 percent chance to win entering the Finals, resulting in the expectation of about four titles in his six appearances.

    Including this season, James’ teams won about as many titles as expected (0.2 fewer than expected, to be exact). What is most interesting about the list below, however, is that James’ teams had the lowest expected series win percentage (37 percent) of any of the stars. His teams had more than a 60 percent pre-series chance to win only once, according to this model, which is a result of the strength of his teams relative to the opponents he’s faced.

    MVP Winners In 5 Or More NBA Finals
    PLAYER FINALS
    APPEARANCES FINALS
    SERIES WINS EXPECTED
    FINALS
    SERIES WINS EXPECTED
    SERIES
    WIN PCT. SERIES WINS
    ABOVE
    EXPECTATIONS
    Bill Russell 12 11 8.9 74% +2.1
    Michael Jordan 6 6 4.1 69% +1.9
    Magic Johnson 9 5 4.0 44% +1.0
    Tim Duncan 6 5 4.2 70% +0.8
    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 10 6 5.4 54% +0.6
    Bob Cousy 7 6 5.6 81% +0.4
    Shaquille O'Neal 6 4 3.8 64% +0.2
    Kobe Bryant 7 5 5.0 71% 0.0
    Larry Bird 5 3 3.1 62% -0.1
    LeBron James 6 2 2.2 37% -0.2
    Wilt Chamberlain 6 2 3.7 61% -1.7

    Because a player’s team over- or underachieved doesn’t necessarily mean that the player did. Against the Warriors, James scored or assisted on 62 percent of the Cavaliers’ points and became the first player in Finals history to lead both teams in points, rebounds and assists. Although this NBA Finals will go down as another notch in the loss column for James, most would agree that he did not underachieve against the Warriors.
    Good article ESPN.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    5,418

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    Looking for support
    The ranks of LeBron James' "supporting casts" among teams in the last 31 NBA Finals

    RESULT
    2015 58th Lost
    2014 53rd Lost
    2013 38th Won
    2012 21st Won
    2011 10th Lost
    2007 59th Lost
    *According to FiveThirtyEight
    This statistic, created by FiveThirtyEight, also takes into account the minutes played by particular teammates and how important each game is for a team’s title chances.
    The idea of Lebron only winning on Stacked teams is exaggerated. 2013 is EXTREMELY underrated

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    14,477

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    hes overachieved


    he should be 1 for 6


    thanks ray


  4. #4
    Local High School Star
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,766

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    I'd say he's done well considering what he's had to work with. Even those Heat teams weren't all that good (an injured/inconsistent Wade, often disappearing and soft Bosh, and a bunch of guys past their prime)

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    5,418

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    kobe should be 1/2

    Thanks Shaq and Metta

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    5,418

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    Quote Originally Posted by midatlantic09
    I'd say he's done well considering what he's had to work with. Even those Heat teams weren't all that good (an injured/inconsistent Wade, often disappearing and soft Bosh, and a bunch of guys past their prime)
    Bingo

    And the only season where Lebron truly choked was 2011... no one is denying that... It is the same for Kobe with 2004 with an arguably greater team with 4 all-star players, hall of famers.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    14,477

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    Quote Originally Posted by GIF REACTION
    kobe should be 1/2

    Thanks Shaq and Metta
    kobe actually saved 2000 for shaq

    25 points ( team leader )
    11 rebounds ( team leader )
    7 assists ( team leader )
    4 blocks ( team leader )

    game 7
    western conference finals
    real* nba finals





    + 29/7/6 playoffs in 2001

    + 27/6/5 playoffs in 2002

    + 30/5/5 playoffs in 2009

    + 29/6/5 playoffs in 2010




    thanks kobe



    * no colluding
    * no ring chasing
    * no bail outs with the season on the line
    * no multiple HOF'rs

  8. #8
    A humble prophet Dresta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Medina
    Posts
    9,829

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    And yet a simple watch of the 2011 finals is all that is needed to bring down the whole brocade of inconsequential bullshit being sprayed by OP & ESPN in this thread right now.

  9. #9
    Caped Baldy Angel Face's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    2,626

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    Excuses... analytics 2/6

  10. #10
    Cavs for life BigTicket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,316

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    I think the article is right, he has slightly overachieved in getting to the finals, but slightly underachieved once he got there.

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    5,418

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTicket
    I think the article is right, he has slightly overachieved in getting to the finals, but slightly underachieved once he got there.
    And for many other greats it is the opposite

    I'd still take losing in the finals over losing in the 1st round any day

  12. #12
    The Magic are a trash HylianNightmare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,553

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    Yes, I had a higher hopes for him

  13. #13
    #Trump4Treason nathanjizzle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    14,705

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    dirk nowitzki is a huge underachiever. half of his playoff appearances were first round exits.

  14. #14
    Curry fam navy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    15,095

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    Yeah, he lost 2011 when he shouldnt have. That's a huge black mark.

  15. #15
    NEEDS MORE HELP LeFraud James's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Posts
    2,824

    Default Re: Has LeBron James underachieved in NBA Finals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresta
    And yet a simple watch of the 2011 finals is all that is needed to bring down the whole brocade of inconsequential bullshit being sprayed by OP & ESPN in this thread right now.
    My sentiments exactly.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •