MVP competition of GOAT-caliber players

[Roundball_Rock]

This thread looks at the MVP competition various GOAT-caliber player faced. I will look at the top 5 finishers in MVP voting not just in the years they won but in the period they were strong contenders to be MVP to get a better idea of what players were consistent MVP caliber players during the respective eras. I have limited this thread to KAJ, MJ, Wilt, Russell, LeBron, Magic and Bird.

One thing that really sticks out is Wilt and Russell played in the toughest era to win MVP's. They had to face not only each other, that is another strong GOAT candidate (KAJ, MJ, Wilt, Russell) but also had three other top 15 players in West, Baylor, Oscar. The MVP obviously is a regular season award and arguably if you are looking at the RS only Oscar and Baylor both are top 10 all-time. No one else had that level of competition for MVP's. Only the 80's come close with Magic, Bird, KAJ early and MJ late along with other top 15 types like Moses and Dr. J.


LeBron:

2006: Nash, LeBron, Dirk, Kobe, Billups.

2007: Dirk, Nash, Kobe, Duncan, LeBron.

2008: Kobe, Paul, KG, LeBron, Howard.

2009: LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Howard, Paul.

2010: LeBron, Durant, Kobe, Howard, Wade.

2011: Rose, Howard, LeBron, Kobe, Durant.

2012: LeBron, Durant, Paul, Kobe, Parker.

2013: LeBron, Durant, Anthony, Paul, Kobe.

2014: Durant, LeBron, Griffin, Noah, Harden.


Jordan:



1987: Magic, Jordan, Bird, McHale, Wilkins.

1988: Jordan, Bird, Magic, Barkley, Drexler.

1989: Magic, Jordan, Malone, Ewing, Hakeem.

1990: Magic, Barkley, Jordan, Malone, Ewing.

1991: Jordan, Magic, Robinson, Barkley, Malone.

1992: Jordan, Drexler, Robinson, Malone, Pippen.

1993: Barkley, Hakeem, Jordan, Ewing, Wilkins.

1994: Hakeem, Robinson, Pippen, Shaq, Ewing.

1995: Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Ewing, Hakeem.

1996: Jordan, Robinson, Penny, Hakeem, Pippen.

1997: Malone, Jordan, Hill, T. Hardaway, Rice.

1998: Jordan, Malone, Payton, Shaq, Duncan.



Magic/Bird



1980: Kareem, Erving, Gervin, Bird, three players tied for 5th.

1981: Erving, Bird, Kareem, Moses, Gervin.

1982: Moses, Bird, Erving, Parish, Williams.

1983: Moses, Bird, Magic, Moncrief, Erving.

1984: Bird, King, Magic, Kareem, Thomas.

1985: Bird, Magic, Moses, Kareem, Cummings.

1986: Bird, Wilkins, Magic, Hakeem, Kareem.

1987: Magic, Jordan, Bird, McHale, Wilkins.

1988: Jordan, Bird, Magic, Barkley, Drexler.

1989: Magic, Jordan, Malone, Ewing, Hakeem.

1990: Magic, Barkley, Jordan, Malone, Ewing.

1991: Jordan, Magic, Robinson, Barkley, Malone.



KAJ in the 70’s



1970: Reed, West, Kareem, Frazier, two players tied for 5th.

1971: Kareem, West, Bing, Reed, Oscar.

1972: Kareem, West, Wilt, Havelick, Haywood.

1973: Cowens, Kareem, Archibald, Wilt, Havelick.

1974: Kareem, McAdoo, Lanier, Cowens, Hayes.

1975: McAdoo, Cowens, Hayes, Barry, Kareem.

1976: Kareem, McAdoo, Cowens, Barry, McGinnes.

1977: Kareem, Walton, Maravich, Lanier, Erving.

1978: Walton, Gervin, Thompson, Kareem, Davis.

1979: Moses, Gervin, Hayes, Kareem, Dandrige.



Wilt/Russell in the 60’s and 50’s



1957: Cousy, Pettit, Arizin, Yardley, two tied.

1958: Russell, Schayes, Yardley, Pettit, Stokes.

1959: Pettit, Russell, Baylor, Cousy, Arizin.

1960: Wilt, Russell, Pettit, Cousy, Baylor.

1961: Russell, Pettit, Baylor, Wilt, Oscar.

1962: Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Baylor, West.

1963: Russell, Baylor, Oscar, Pettit, West.

1964: Oscar, Wilt, Russell, Pettit, West.

1965: Russell, Oscar, West, S. Jones, Wilt.

1966: Wilt, West, Oscar, Russell, two tied.

1967: Wilt, Thurmond, Russell, Oscar, Barry.

1968: Wilt, Wilkens, Baylor, Bing, Oscar.

1969: Unseld, Reed, Cunningham, Russell, Baylor.

[SexSymbol]

Yeah, we know who played in the NBA

[played0ut]

These comparison threads are good. Gives depth and shows different perspectives in how people judge/gauge players.

i.e, If Bird's Celtics were in a different era w/o Magic, how many would he win and how would that affect his overall standing

[dubeta]

LeBron's competition is way tougher

[Roundball_Rock]

These comparison threads are good. Gives depth and shows different perspectives in how people judge/gauge players.

i.e, If Bird's Celtics were in a different era w/o Magic, how many would he win and how would that affect his overall standing

Yeah, it helps put things in context. Wilt would have had more MVP's had he played in any other era so his 4 MVP's need to be judged accordingly.

[played0ut]

Yeah, it helps put things in context. Wilt would have had more MVP's had he played in any other era so his 4 MVP's need to be judged accordingly.

You're right.

I've always considered luck a huge part of the equation in being ranked on GOAT lists. Teammates, other stars, and FO (front office SO so so ****ing much).

But unfortunately, context isn't considered as much (understandably) on GOAT rankings.

That's why I believe there are BOAT (Best of all time) lists and GOAT lists, where one list judges based solely on individual skill/impact, and the other an 'overall' list.



Michael Jordan was the perfect storm.

-Lack of a 'true' rival who can maybe steal some rings (though i firmly believe with teammates being equal, he would still come on top more than not by sheer force of his competitive drive)
-Great FO (smart draft pickings, not idiots)
-Great coach (if Jordan had crappy coaches he probably wouldn't win as much)
-Great agent (sponsorships, his 'spectacular' playstyle elevated basketball popularity around the world at a time when NBA just started being available globally)
-Actual BOAT skills




If he came in an earlier or later area he probably wouldn't be as big.

[Roundball_Rock]

You're right.

I've always considered luck a huge part of the equation in being ranked on GOAT lists. Teammates, other stars, and FO (front office SO so so ****ing much).

But unfortunately, context isn't considered as much (understandably) on GOAT rankings.

That's why I believe there are BOAT (Best of all time) lists and GOAT lists, where one list judges based solely on individual skill/impact, and the other an 'overall' list.



Michael Jordan was the perfect storm.

-Lack of a 'true' rival who can maybe steal some rings (though i firmly believe with teammates being equal, he would still come on top more than not by sheer force of his competitive drive)
-Great FO (smart draft pickings, not idiots)
-Great coach (if Jordan had crappy coaches he probably wouldn't win as much)
-Great agent (sponsorships, his 'spectacular' playstyle elevated basketball popularity around the world at a time when NBA just started being available globally)
-Actual BOAT skills




If he came in an earlier or later area he probably wouldn't be as big.

MJ stans will crucify you but what you said is the truth. Moreover, MJ had the perfect timing of his team hitting its prime after LA/BOS/DET declined and before the Shaq/Kobe Lakers or Duncan Spurs rose. If MJ was born a few years earlier or later his resume would be weaker as a result of greater competition.

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ stans will crucify you but what you said is the truth. Moreover, MJ had the perfect timing of his team hitting its prime after LA/BOS/DET declined and before the Shaq/Kobe Lakers or Duncan Spurs rose. If MJ was born a few years earlier or later his resume would be weaker as a result of greater competition.

A "Bulls fan" saying this ...

Jumping through hoops, a gold medal @ mental gymnastics to throw shade at Jordan. This could literally be said about ANY player.

Particularly James, whose cowardly post 2010 decision NBA he has faced the weakest MVP / team competition I've seen in my basketball viewing lifetime.

He's in his prime, and his ONLY competition is young / early prime Kevin Durant.

- Young MJ had MVP comp from prime Magic, prime Bird, prime Nique
- Prime MJ had MVP comp from peak Drexler, peak Barkley, peak Hakeem, peak Nique, peak Ewing young D. Rob.
- Past Prime MJ had MVP comp from prime Shaq, peak Malone, peak GP, young Penny, young Hill

[played0ut]

MJ stans will crucify you but what you said is the truth. Moreover, MJ had the perfect timing of his team hitting its prime after LA/BOS/DET declined and before the Shaq/Kobe Lakers or Duncan Spurs rose. If MJ was born a few years earlier or later his resume would be weaker as a result of greater competition.

heh I'm a huge MJ fan but i'm not an idiot.


**** the stans. That's why i'm in the red lol

[JT123]

A "Bulls fan" saying this ...

Jumping through hoops, a gold medal @ mental gymnastics to throw shade at Jordan. This could literally be said about ANY player.

Particularly James, whose cowardly post 2010 decision NBA he has faced the weakest MVP / team competition I've seen in my basketball viewing lifetime.

He's in his prime, and his ONLY competition is young / early prime Kevin Durant.

- Young MJ had MVP comp from prime Magic, prime Bird, prime Nique
- Prime MJ had MVP comp from peak Drexler, peak Barkley, peak Hakeem, peak Nique, peak Ewing young D. Rob.
- Past Prime MJ had MVP comp from prime Shaq, peak Malone, peak GP, young Penny, young Hill

meltdown alert!

[G.O.A.T]

Probably should be it's own thread, but here are the years off the top my head where the MVP competition was the toughest.

1962 - Russell wins despite Wilts 50/28 and 100 point game, Oscars triple double and Baylor's near 40/20 without practicing. Bellamy and Pettit were almost 30/20 guys and Jerry West and Richie Guerin made a total of seven 30 ppg scorers in a nine team league. Enough to go around.

1990 - Magic wins because some writers hated Barkley but in truth Hakeem (24-14-3-3-5) and MJ (33-7-7-3-1) probably had the best case for the award. Malone went 31-11, Robinson 25/12/3/2/4 and Ewing had maybe his best season 28/11 nearly 60% shooting and they are afterthoughts. Crazy deep year.

1993 - Barkley won but should have finished third here. MJ and Hakeem again. By now they were the clear #1 and #2 i think. Another big year for Ewing at a bad time, Nique, Robinson, Shaq, Malone all had good years too.

[SouBeachTalents]

1987 was probably the most stacked year ever

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. McHale
5. Dominique
6. Barkley
7. Hakeem
8. Isiah
9. Fat Lever
10. Moses

Malone finished tied for 12th with Parish as well

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

A "Bulls fan" saying this ...

Jumping through hoops, a gold medal @ mental gymnastics to throw shade at Jordan. This could literally be said about ANY player.

Particularly James, whose cowardly post 2010 decision NBA he has faced the weakest MVP / team competition I've seen in my basketball viewing lifetime.

He's in his prime, and his ONLY competition is young / early prime Kevin Durant.

- Young MJ had MVP comp from prime Magic, prime Bird, prime Nique
- Prime MJ had MVP comp from peak Drexler, peak Barkley, peak Hakeem, peak Nique, peak Ewing young D. Rob.
- Past Prime MJ had MVP comp from prime Shaq, peak Malone, peak GP, young Penny, young Hill

Nothing he said was outlandish. Yes there are other players just as fortunate, naturally, but they were talking about MJ here.

[LAZERUSS]

Yeah, it helps put things in context. Wilt would have had more MVP's had he played in any other era so his 4 MVP's need to be judged accordingly.

I have mentioned it many times before, but the MVP voting, which was done by the players at that time, was very suspicious on several occasions in the 60's.

Wilt not only won the ROY in '60, he easily won the MVP. And that is the baseline for the voting in '62. Russell and his Celtics had nearly identical seasons in both '60 and '62. And, Wilt's teams had nearly an identical mark in both years, as well. However, while Wilt had an amazing season in '60, he was clearly far more dominant in '62.

I will be the first to admit that Wilt, playing on a 31-49 team, didn't deserve an MVP in '63...albeit, he played his heart out. But still, in a season in which he ran away with the scoring title by 10 ppg, led the league in rebounding, and set a then-record FG% mark, to go along with leading the league in 12 more of their 22 statistical categories...to finish seventh was absurd. He was behind Red Kerr, whom, in their seasonal H2H's, he outscored per game, 43-19, including two games by margins of 60-21 and 70-14 was just ridiculous. Not only that, but Terry Dischinger, playing on a 25-55 team, had more first place votes.

Then, Wilt took basically the same exact roster to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals the next season, and still didn't win the MVP. Oscar, playing on a far more stacked team, that went 55-25, won it.

And if there was ever evidence of an "anti-Wilt" sentiment, it came in the 68-69 season. Unseld (who won the MVP), Reed (who came in 2nd), and Russell (who came in 4th) all finished ahead of Wilt, who was nowhere to be found in the voting.

In that 68-69 season, only Unseld's team had a better record, at 57-25 to Wilt's 55-27. Chamberlain's Lakers had a better record than Reed's Knicks, and were well ahead of Russell's Celtics. And, in the team H2H's, Wilt's Lakers went 3-3 against Unseld's, 4-2 against Russell's, and 5-1 against Reed's.

Then, in their personal H2H battles, Chamberlain just crushed all three of them. On top of all of that, Wilt was statistically, considerably greater than all three, as well. Add in the fact that teammate West missed 21 games (and LA went 12-9 in them), and teammate Baylor, who also finished ahead of Wilt in the voting, missed six games, and the Lakers went 5-1 in those games.

And while Russell and Wilt each won four MVPs in the decade of the 60's, it was interesting that Wilt held a 7-2 margin in first-team All-NBA selections in their ten years in the league together.

[SHAQisGOAT]

People always gotta consider stuff like this when comparing MVP's and it also goes for other accolades, individual or collectively.