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  1. #106
    Troll spotting pro Y2Gezee's Avatar
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    Oh my Loki, you're really underrating Pip. Pippen could've been a mid 20ppg scorer possibly on another team. You think Pierce is better than Pippen was? Naw. I'd rather have the guy with the Odom like stats and pippen like defense or in other words Artest (if he wasn't insane) next to Kobe. and the good big man.

    I think Pippen in his prime could've atleast had a few 24-27ppg seasons if he was the man on a pretty bad team.

    And Sheed had those type of stats last year and made the allstar team.

  2. #107
    NBA Superstar eliteballer's Avatar
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    All-stars. Find them.
    You want an All-Star big man with those kinds of stats? Sure. Horace Grant in 1994.
    LocOwned!

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliteballer
    You want an All-Star big man with those kinds of stats? Sure. Horace Grant in 1994. Shut IT.


    That's the entire point of the argument: that Grant was perhaps the weakest all-star big man ever, and that you were trying to paint him as something he was not (I originally conceded that he was BARELY all-star worthy, and you then tried to act as if he was a beast). And I ask you for examples of other all-stars with comparable or worse lines and you post...Grant. What a joke.


    Regardless, none of these guys are a 25/15/5/3 center (better than Shaq #'s), which is what sparked this debate. I didn't say that Kobe should be expected to win without help, I said why can't he win without what people feel will be a 25/15/5/3 big man. You then changed the issue to one of "help." Nobody said Kobe doesn't deserve help.


    Go ahead and start a thread about Rodman vs. Wallace. See how many votes Wallace gets. Did you just say Kwame=Ho Grant? Kwame can't catch the damn ball half the time Leave it to you to rely on stats...the game is about more than stats.
    Amazing how well he produces despite not being able to catch the ball, huh? Bynum's per minute production is also comparable to Grant's -- can he not catch the ball either?


    Pippen made the All-NBA first team over a Grant Hill who was doing 20/10/7. Pippen didn't have as many 35 point games. WOW!. His impact went faaaaar beyond how many points he scored. Could Bron or Pierce even PRAY to give Magic fits?:stupid:
    Like I said, different players. I'd be willing to see if Kobe could win with a 19/8/6 great defensive SF (basically Lamar Odom with better defense), but why does he need a 31/7/7 or 27/7/5 player, one of whom is already hailed as a GOAT candidate, in order to win? Pippen may have been a top 3 SF back then, but the top 3 SF's today (Lebron, Pierce, and Melo) are much better offensive players than the top 3 back then (Pippen, Hill, and Rice), and Lebron is better than all of them by a good margin PERIOD.


    Quote Originally Posted by Y2Gezee
    Oh my Loki, you're really underrating Pip. Pippen could've been a mid 20ppg scorer possibly on another team. You think Pierce is better than Pippen was? Naw. I'd rather have the guy with the Odom like stats and pippen like defense or in other words Artest (if he wasn't insane) next to Kobe. and the good big man.
    Not mid-20's imo. Low 20's, topping out at around 23.5 ppg. Pierce is not necessarily BETTER than Pippen was (though Lebron is), but he's different, and the reason I highlight that difference is because clowns like eliteballer tend to forget about Pippen's offensive woes (especially in the latter postseasons) while hyping him up as some sort of god in order to downplay Jordan. Yeah, I'll give Kobe Artest, so long as Artest shoots 39, 42, and 41% in consecutive postseasons like Pippen did from '96-'98. Actually, I'd be willing to give Kobe Artest, no problem. But Lebron is a different story entirely.
    Last edited by Loki; 11-28-2006 at 02:34 AM.

  4. #109
    NBA Superstar eliteballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki


    That's the entire point of the argument: that Grant was perhaps the weakest all-star big man ever, and that you were trying to paint him as something he was not (I originally conceded that he was BARELY all-star worthy, and you then tried to act as if he was a beast). And I ask you for examples of other all-stars with comparable or worse lines and you post...Grant. What a joke.


    Regardless, none of these guys are a 25/15/5/3 center (better than Shaq #'s), which is what sparked this debate. I didn't say that Kobe should be expected to win without help, I said why can't he win without what people feel will be a 25/15/5/3 big man. You then changed the issue to one of "help." Nobody said Kobe doesn't deserve help.




    Amazing how well he produces despite not being able to catch the ball, huh? Bynum's per minute production is also comparable to Grant's -- can he not catch the ball either?




    Like I said, different players. I'd be willing to see if Kobe could win with a 19/8/6 great defensive SF (basically Lamar Odom with better defense), but why does he need a 31/7/7 or 27/7/5 player, one of whom is already hailed as a GOAT candidate, in order to win? Pippen may have been a top 3 SF back then, but the top 3 SF's today (Lebron, Pierce, and Melo) are much better offensive players than the top 3 back then (Pippen, Hill, and Rice), and Lebron is better than all of them by a good margin PERIOD.




    Not mid-20's imo. Low 20's, topping out at around 24 ppg. Pierce is not necessarily BETTER than Pippen was (though Lebron is), but he's different, and the reason I highlight that difference is because clowns like eliteballer tend to forget about Pippen's offensive woes (especially in the latter postseasons) while hyping him up as some sort of god in order to downplay Jordan. Yeah, I'll give Kobe Artest, so long as Artest shoots 39, 42, and 41% in consecutive postseasons like Pippen did from '96-'98. Actually, I'd be willing to give Kobe Artest, no problem. But Lebron is a different story entirely.

    Sheed. Illguaskus. Magloirre. Jayson Williams. Mutumbo. Smits. Kareem. Tyrone Hill. Laimbeer. Parish. Oakley. Cliff. Sikma. Lucas. Need I go on? I named the player you were demoting as an actual All-Star. Cork it. Now you're saying Melo and Pierce are better than Pippen? Ridiculous the lengths you will go to defend MJ. Spewing nonsense left and right. Bron isn't better than Hill was. Nope. Hill was a better rebounder, defender and at least as good a passer

  5. #110
    Troll spotting pro Y2Gezee's Avatar
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    Oops. Sheed had 15.1, but whats the difference. He may do it again this year.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliteballer
    Sheed. Illguaskus. Magloirre. Jayson Williams. Mutumbo. Smits. Kareem. Tyrone Hill. Laimbeer. Parish. Oakley. Cliff. Sikma. Lucas. Need I go on?
    Give me years so I can check the stats, because I know you didn't. Again, worse than 14/10 in both categories (because Grant was at 12.8/8.4 and 13.2/9.5 in two of the championship seasons).


    Regardless, I originally conceded that he was a barely all-star caliber big man, but you then proceeded to act as if he was the second coming. Sorry, but 14/10 or 13/9 is skirting the line for an all-star big man. How does that compare to a 25/15/5/3 player? Oh that's right -- it doesn't.


    And LMAO @ Hill being better than Bron. As an all-around player, maybe (though it's close), but not as a franchise player to build around. Nobody was mentioning Hill as a GOAT candidate. Ever.

  7. #112
    NBA Superstar eliteballer's Avatar
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    LOL. Hill was annointed the heir to Jordan. The hyperbole of calling players GOAT wasn't as prevalent. Bron has ESPN and Nike. pushing him down everyone's throats.

  8. #113
    NBA Superstar eliteballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Give me years so I can check the stats, because I know you didn't. Again, worse than 14/10 in both categories (because Grant was at 12.8/8.4 and 13.2/9.5 in two of the championship seasons).


    Regardless, I originally conceded that he was a barely all-star caliber big man, but you then proceeded to act as if he was the second coming. Sorry, but 14/10 or 13/9 is skirting the line for an all-star big man. How does that compare to a 25/15/5/3 player? Oh that's right -- it doesn't.


    And LMAO @ Hill being better than Bron. As an all-around player, maybe (though it's close), but not as a franchise player to build around. Nobody was mentioning Hill as a GOAT candidate. Ever.
    Flawed reasoning. They are either worse in points or rebounds and very few bring the defense to the table. Grant posted comparable numbers to his All-Star appearance in the title years when factoring in FG%, blocks, steals.:stupid:

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliteballer
    Grant posted comparable numbers to his All-Star appearance in the title years when factoring in FG%, blocks, steals.:stupid:
    I never denied that. But it's a bit misleading to call a 14/10 or 13/9 player an "all-star caliber player." Hell, I even conceded that he was (barely) all-star level, but you had to go an act like a fool, as if Grant was some force. Bynum and Kwame are basically his equal production-wise right now. You give either of them Grant's 35 mpg (as opposed to 20-25 mpg) and they'll easily put up 13/9. Are they "all-star caliber players", or would you say that that's misleading?

  10. #115
    NBA Superstar eliteballer's Avatar
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    Grant MADE the All-Star team and plenty have with comparable numbers. It goes beyond the numbers. Bynum and Kwame are no where near All-Star caliber. It's like comparing them to Sheed right now. Really need to ask who the hell is better? The only one acting a fool is you.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliteballer
    Grant MADE the All-Star team and plenty have with comparable numbers. It goes beyond the numbers. Bynum and Kwame are no where near All-Star caliber. It's like comparing them to Sheed right now. Really need to ask who the hell is better? The only one acting a fool is you.
    Why does it go beyond the numbers, because you said so? Give Bynum 35 mpg and he averages 13/9 guaranteed. Is he an all-star caliber player? He doesn't drop balls like Kwame, either, so there goes that excuse.

  12. #117
    NBA Superstar eliteballer's Avatar
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    If Bynum had the stamina and consistency to GET those minutes than maybe. You always speak about the superior understanding of Jordan on D. Ho Grant's knowledge>>>>>Kwame or Bynums. Just like Sheeds. If you want to rely on stats Bron of the last few years>>>98 Jordan. You asked for a list and you got one. Owned.

  13. #118
    NBA Superstar eliteballer's Avatar
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    Pippen Grant and BJ all made the All-Star team in 94. If Smush, Odom, and Kwame can do that we'll have a discussion

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    Quote Originally Posted by eliteballer
    If Bynum had the stamina and consistency to GET those minutes than maybe. You always speak about the superior understanding of Jordan on D. Ho Grant's knowledge>>>>>Kwame or Bynums. Just like Sheeds. If you want to rely on stats Bron of the last few years>>>98 Jordan. You asked for a list and you got one. Owned.


    What's funny is that I said that he was barely AS caliber, but you tried to paint him as some kind of force. Ho Grant wasn't a force -- he was a good, hard-working player. Nothing more or less. He certainly wasn't a 25/15/5/3 big man like was being discussed before you sidetracked things and acted like Grant/Rodman = a 25/15/5/3 big man.

  15. #120
    NBA Superstar eliteballer's Avatar
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    Where oh where did I call Rodman or Grant 25/15 bigmen? Putting words into my mouth to ease your humiliation?

    Pippen Grant and BJ all made the All-Star team in 94. If Smush, Odom, and Kwame can do that we'll have a discussion
    3 All-Stars

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