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Old 09-28-2017, 07:10 PM   #46
Round Mound
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

Quote:
Originally Posted by julizaver
He was considered better than Malone at the time - and posters above me, who watched NBA back than are right.

And Hakeem was considered the best after Jordan ONLY after Rockets won two chips after MJ first retirement, not before that.

And I mentioned considered, because this was mostly the public opinion about those players at the time.



Exactly people forget that and most of the ISH posters did not watch it live.
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Old 09-28-2017, 07:20 PM   #47
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

BTW This is My All Time Staring 5:

C: Wilt
PF: Hakeem
SF: Bird
SG: MJ
PG: Magic
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:35 PM   #48
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
BTW This is My All Time Staring 5:

C: Wilt
PF: Hakeem
SF: Bird
SG: MJ
PG: Magic
Awful spacing.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:43 PM   #49
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
1-MJ
2-Wilt
3-Kareem
4-Hakeem
5-Shaq
6-Duncan
7-Bird
8-Magic
9-Lebron
10-Oscar
11-Dr J
12-Moses
13-Baylor
14-Barkley
15-Kobe
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:00 AM   #50
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

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Originally Posted by aj1987

My list is not made by team achievements but by level of play...
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:09 AM   #51
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
My list is not made by team achievements but by level of play...
Then how is LeBron not top 3, when every metric points towards him being top 3. Even going just by level of play, 22 year old Kobe was better in the first 3 rounds of the PO's in '01 than Barkley ever was in his entire career.
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:36 AM   #52
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

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Originally Posted by aj1987
Then how is LeBron not top 3, when every metric points towards him being top 3. Even going just by level of play, 22 year old Kobe was better in the first 3 rounds of the PO's in '01 than Barkley ever was in his entire career.

Lebron´s legacy is not over so that might change. Barkley was more dominant and efficient than Kobe. Kobe had better longevity. Kobe needed dominant bigs to get the finals Chuck did not (It was also harder to get to the finals in Chucks era). Overall Kobe played with great teams in his prime much better than Chuck´s. Overall Kobe is probably the most skilled player ever with Larry Bird but he wasn´t very effective he needs alot of shots to score effectively unlike Prime Chuck.

Last edited by Round Mound : 09-29-2017 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 09-29-2017, 02:18 AM   #53
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
Lebron´s legacy is not over so that might change.
Try to get your stuff together, bruh. Are we talking about legacy or impact?

Either ways, there's pretty much no argument for putting LeBron out of the top 5 impact wise or legacy wise. LeBron, in his 14th season, just put up 26/9/9/1/1 on 62% TS in the RS and 33/9/8/2/1 on 65% TS in the PO's. No one in the history of the sport have come close to those numbers in their 14th season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
Barkley was more dominant and efficient than Kobe. Kobe had better longevity. Kobe needed dominant bigs to get the finals Chuck did not (It was also harder to get to the finals in Chucks era). Overall Kobe played with great teams in his prime much better than Chuck´s. Overall Kobe is probably the most skilled player ever with Larry Bird but he wasn´t very effective he needs alot of shots to score effectively unlike Prime Chuck.
And Barkley could only dream of volume scoring the way Kobe did. As I said earlier, Kobe's '01 WC series absolutely crap anything Barkley has ever done in the PO's and Kobe did it at 22. Not to mention Kobe is a better passer and an infinitely better defender than Barkley.
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Old 09-29-2017, 03:38 AM   #54
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
Try to get your stuff together, bruh. Are we talking about legacy or impact?

Either ways, there's pretty much no argument for putting LeBron out of the top 5 impact wise or legacy wise. LeBron, in his 14th season, just put up 26/9/9/1/1 on 62% TS in the RS and 33/9/8/2/1 on 65% TS in the PO's. No one in the history of the sport have come close to those numbers in their 14th season.


And Barkley could only dream of volume scoring the way Kobe did. As I said earlier, Kobe's '01 WC series absolutely crap anything Barkley has ever done in the PO's and Kobe did it at 22. Not to mention Kobe is a better passer and an infinitely better defender than Barkley.

Barkley wasn´t a selfish player like Kobe. Barkley scored alot with very high effectiveness and he never played with a Twin Tower System or the 2nd Most Dominant Center Ever in his Prime (Kobe: Shaq, Gasol-Bynum-Odom) nor a coach of the level of Phil Jackson. And relative to position Barkley > Kobe as a passer. Kobe needs alot of help to win Barkley can carry scrubs to the play-offs. Rebonding wise Barkley destroys Kobe and Barkley was a better shot blocker in his prime aswell. Barkley was lazy on defense but when he was pissed off only MJ and Hakeem where on his level in their respective eras. Barkley´s PER, EFF; Winshare Per 48 Minutes, Plus/Minus etc are all higher than Kobe. Barkley was more dominant and efficient than Kobe was.
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Old 09-29-2017, 08:22 AM   #55
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
And Barkley could only dream of volume scoring the way Kobe did. As I said earlier, Kobe's '01 WC series absolutely crap anything Barkley has ever done in the PO's and Kobe did it at 22. Not to mention Kobe is a better passer and an infinitely better defender than Barkley.


Sure, because Kobe averaged 35.4ppg at his peak, while Chuck could never manage more than 28.3. Of course, Kobe put up 11.2 (that's right, 11.2) more field goal attempts per game to get those 7.1 extra points, but that's just a trivial detail.

In Barkley's last (and clearly worst) season, he averaged 14.5ppg on 11.1fga. So I think it's fair to say he might have averaged at least another 14ppg if he put up the same number of shots as Kobe.


The difference between Barkley's and Kobe's scoring numbers is due a difference in methodology, not ability...

Barkley's game plan: Look for a high percentage shot. If it's not there draw the double team and find a team mate in space.

Kobe's game plan: Give me the ball and get out of my way.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:06 AM   #56
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
Sure, because Kobe averaged 35.4ppg at his peak, while Chuck could never manage more than 28.3. Of course, Kobe put up 11.2 (that's right, 11.2) more field goal attempts per game to get those 7.1 extra points, but that's just a trivial detail.
We could have this discussion about volume scoring, but as I said, Barkley never even came close to those numbers. Dude never scored over 29 PPG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
In Barkley's last (and clearly worst) season, he averaged 14.5ppg on 11.1fga. So I think it's fair to say he might have averaged at least another 14ppg if he put up the same number of shots as Kobe.
It doesn't work that way. You can't extrapolate scoring. A point or two? Sure. However, you just can't double it. That's like saying LeBron would've scored nearly 50 PPG, if he took ~30 shots a game. Efficiency falls as the volume goes up. Starts to take a drastic hit after a certain point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
The difference between Barkley's and Kobe's scoring numbers is due a difference in methodology, not ability...

Barkley's game plan: Look for a high percentage shot. If it's not there draw the double team and find a team mate in space.

Kobe's game plan: Give me the ball and get out of my way.
Is that why Kobe always put up better numbers than Kobe? Scoring AND assists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
[b]Barkley wasn´t a selfish player like Kobe. Barkley scored alot with very high effectiveness and he never played with a Twin Tower System or the 2nd Most Dominant Center Ever in his Prime (Kobe: Shaq, Gasol-Bynum-Odom) nor a coach of the level of Phil Jackson.
Kobe with Shaq - 54.8% TS
Kobe without Shaq - 55% TS


Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
And relative to position Barkley > Kobe as a passer.
Kobe >>>> Barkley as a passer and playmaker. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
Kobe needs alot of help to win Barkley can carry scrubs to the play-offs.
Difference if, Kobe won.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
Rebonding wise Barkley destroys Kobe and Barkley was a better shot blocker in his prime aswell.
Sure, but that doesn't make him a better defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
Barkley was lazy on defense but when he was pissed off only MJ and Hakeem where on his level in their respective eras.
What in the actual ****?!

Barkley was a garbage ass defender. How are you even disputing that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
Barkley´s PER, EFF; Winshare Per 48 Minutes, Plus/Minus etc are all higher than Kobe. Barkley was more dominant and efficient than Kobe was.
And yet, Kobe has 5 rings and significantly better PO performances than Barkley could ever dream of.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:34 AM   #57
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

There isn't a single player to whom Barkley's best 5 years don't compare very favorably with. They crap all over Malone's and Robinson's best 5 years. And they are superior (offensively at least) to Hakeem's and Shaq's.

Let's look at it this way.

From the start of the 86 playoffs to the end of the 91 playoffs (5 regular seasons and 5 post seasons) Barkley averaged 25.9ppg on .599%eFG and .652%TS, to go with 4.8orpg, 7.5drpg 4.1apg, 1.6spg, 1.0bpg and 3.6tov.

Durant has clearly been the most elite offensive player in the league over the last 5 years. So, for comparison, what's his line over his last 5 regular and post seasons combined? Well it's 28.5ppg on .561%eFG and .630%TS, 0.7orpg, 7.1drpg, 4.8apg, 1.2spg, 1.2bpg and 3.2tov.

According to bball-ref's usage formula Barkley used 23.5 offensive possessions per game over this stretch, while Durant has used 25.8. BUT Barkley also grabbed 4.1 more offensive boards a game. The net result is that Durant uses up 6.5 more offensive possessions a game than prime Barkley for a measly 2.5 points. Prime Barkley was an offensive force superior to anyone in the game today. Without question.


Barkley just didn't get to bring his peak level to the Finals because his 2nd options were players like Mike Gminksi and Hersey Hawkins. The only season in Philly that he did have a decent shot at title run, Moses went down before the playoffs, which left him with 36yo Dr J and a decent Mo Cheeks, but nothing like a contending team.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:42 AM   #58
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
We could have this discussion about volume scoring, but as I said, Barkley never even came close to those numbers. Dude never scored over 29 PPG. .

So you'd rather a guy put up 27 shots a game for 35 points, than 16 shots for 28 points? OK. I wouldn't

You know Kobe and Chuck would actually have been perfect team mates. Chuck's ATG offensive rebounding would help to nullify Kobe's 15 missed shots a game.
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:01 AM   #59
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
It doesn't work that way. You can't extrapolate scoring. A point or two? Sure. However, you just can't double it. That's like saying LeBron would've scored nearly 50 PPG, if he took ~30 shots a game. Efficiency falls as the volume goes up. Starts to take a drastic hit after a certain point.


Is that why Kobe always put up better numbers than Kobe? Scoring AND assists.

If Barkley took 11.2 more shots a game and made just 3.5 of them (32%) he'd have had 35.4 a game. That's without drawing any fouls or making any 3's. If he actually chose to take that many shots, it is obvious he'd be scoring over 40 a game. Any one can see that.

Kobe had more assists, because he was a guard and had the ball in his hands a lot more. You know that. Pick any great SG... Kobe will average less assists. Pick any great PF... There are maybe two all time (KG and Webber) who got more assists than Barkley.

EDIT: In actual fact, Barkley could just have taken 11.2 more 3 pointers a game, made 25% of them, and he'd have had 37 points a game. Would that have made him a better scorer than Kobe? He'd have more points on better efficiency. Keen to hear your answer.

Last edited by AussieSteve : 09-29-2017 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:29 AM   #60
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Default Re: All These Barkley Posts Got To Stop - Malone,Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq, > Barkley

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
If Barkley took 11.2 more shots a game and made just 3.5 of them (32%) he'd have had 35.4 a game. That's without drawing any fouls or making any 3's. If he actually chose to take that many shots, it is obvious he'd be scoring over 40 a game. Any one can see that.
That's not how basketball works. You need to factor in defenses trying to stop after you start scoring a bunch and then you have fatigue as well. Players would probably need another ~10 minutes to put up those shots and if they're already playing ~36 MPG, it brings up their total time played to 46 MPG. How many games would they last?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
Kobe had more assists, because he was a guard and had the ball in his hands a lot more. You know that. Pick any great SG... Kobe will average less assists. Pick any great PF... There are maybe two all time (KG and Webber) who got more assists than Barkley.
So, is Barkley a better playmaker than, lets say, GP, because more PG's have averaged more APG than GP, than PF's have averaged APG over Barkley?

Great logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
So you'd rather a guy put up 27 shots a game for 35 points, than 16 shots for 28 points? OK. I wouldn't
I'm saying you just can't extrapolate points and efficiency like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
You know Kobe and Chuck would actually have been perfect team mates. Chuck's ATG offensive rebounding would help to nullify Kobe's 15 missed shots a game.
And Kobe's volume scoring and great defense would probably help Barkley actually win a ring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
EDIT: In actual fact, Barkley could just have taken 11.2 more 3 pointers a game, made 25% of them, and he'd have had 37 points a game. Would that have made him a better scorer than Kobe? He'd have more points on better efficiency. Keen to hear your answer.
Answered above. Dude to him being overweight, dude would've lasted probably 25-30 games a season with that kind of load.
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