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Old 06-18-2019, 02:13 PM   #31
TheMan
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

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Originally Posted by Manny98
MJ travelled and stiff armed his way to the basket damm near every single possession

It's like watching Harden play, MJ is a fraud

Got another one seething
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:38 PM   #32
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

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Originally Posted by RRR3
To 3ball, jstern, samuraiswoosh, egokiller/Straight_Ballin/lbjftw, DonDadda/SomeBlackDude, bullettooth, sportjames23, andgar, da realist, etc MJ has to be the best at EVERYTHING.

My post was more about Jordan's reflexes, and the gif happened to showcase it with the way his body reacted to the appearance of Chris Mills. I like to analyses techniques. Specially Jordan's, because I feel that the reason why he didn't get injured as often, compared to others who played similar minutes had a lot to do with technique.

I also put Lebron in their. But because his game has more simple, natural body movements without doing crazy moving around that others players do. More simple dribble, run, jump. (This is a good thing.)



Jordan always put his feet, legs, in a natural position, which causes a lot less stress, wear and tear. Again, take a look at Jordan's right foot in this travel. If he turned where the right foot was originally planted, it would had meant a lot more stress on that leg, tendon, and so on. Overtime, without those proper techniques the wear and tear could lead to injury. A weakening a muscle here and there, which could even lead to an achilles tear.

Just a lot of body awareness.
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:46 PM   #33
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

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Originally Posted by jstern
My post was more about Jordan's reflexes, and the gif happened to showcase it with the way his body reacted to the appearance of Chris Mills. I like to analyses techniques. Specially Jordan's, because I feel that the reason why he didn't get injured as often, compared to others who played similar minutes had a lot to do with technique.

I also put Lebron in their. But because his game has more simple, natural body movements without doing crazy moving around that others players do. More simple dribble, run, jump. (This is a good thing.)



Jordan always put his feet, legs, in a natural position, which causes a lot less stress, wear and tear. Again, take a look at Jordan's right foot in this travel. If he turned where the right foot was originally planted, it would had meant a lot more stress on that leg, tendon, and so on. Overtime, without those proper techniques the wear and tear could lead to injury. A weakening a muscle here and there, which could even lead to an achilles tear.

Just a lot of body awareness.

people used to say he ain't human every now and then, some called him an alien

I used to think it was just people having a laugh at how good he was, but sometimes I wonder..

this guy does stuff with so much immense awareness of EVERYTHING that it's just like.. humans don't do this shit man

like what you just caught in that gif is a perfect example of what i've been seeing for the last year or 2 that i've been studying the guy. He feels no pressure whatsoever in ANY situation seemingly. How many times can you see him even flinch? I've watched this guy shoot so many free throws now, the 86 celtics 63 point game he just walks up and knocks down those 2 free throws like he was in a gym by himself

I can see why kids growing up were in flat out awe of this guy, this "human."
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:34 PM   #34
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

It's amazing to me that OP can post this with a straight face. Today's stars travel, commit offensive fouls, whine, flop so much more blatantly than Jordan ever did, it's insane. And not only do they do it more frequently, they create far greater unfair ADVANTAGE than Jordan ever did. What's harder for a defender to defend, a tiny shift in Jordan's pivot foot in the post before going into his move or LBJ or Harden taking three or four steps without dribbling while driving the lane? Or what's harder to defend, Jordan's slight stutter step, or Lebron literally stiff arming his way to the basket routinely, shoving defenders 5 feet out of his path to clear an easy basket?

If today's superstars were called like MJ was called back in the day (and yes, Jordan certainly did get some superstar calls), they'd have to completely recalibrate their game. Harden's per game turnovers would double/triple, and he'd get to the foul line at least 3-4 fewer times per game. Lebron's turnovers and offensive fouls would probably double.
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:38 PM   #35
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

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Originally Posted by Elosha
It's amazing to me that OP can post this with a straight face. Today's stars travel, commit offensive fouls, whine, flop so much more blatantly than Jordan ever did, it's insane. And not only do they do it more frequently, they create far greater unfair ADVANTAGE than Jordan ever did. What's harder for a defender to defend, a tiny shift in Jordan's pivot foot in the post before going into his move or LBJ or Harden taking three or four steps without dribbling while driving the lane? Or what's harder to defend, Jordan's slight stutter step, or Lebron literally stiff arming his way to the basket routinely, shoving defenders 5 feet out of his path to clear an easy basket?

If today's superstars were called like MJ was called back in the day (and yes, Jordan certainly did get some superstar calls), they'd have to completely recalibrate their game. Harden's per game turnovers would double/triple, and he'd get to the foul line at least 3-4 fewer times per game. Lebron's turnovers and offensive fouls would probably double.
I somehow don't think the point of the Op was today's players don't get away with things. I'm pretty sure it's something along the lines of even the goat got away with things whether you like it or not.
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:49 PM   #36
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

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Originally Posted by jstern

I know it's a travel, but the way he's sliding his right foot. Almost looks impossible. As if the bottom of his shoe was lubricated. I haven't tried it, so maybe it's simple and I'm thinking too much of it.

The other thing that I wonder if it was all reflex, split second decision after he saw Chris Mills coming in for a double team that might have made the fadeaway more uncomfortable.

One of the things that stands out the most about Jordan is his reflex in conjunction to his body control/movement.

You posted this gif before.



The little hop to his left in reaction to the double team fake, it's subtle but I feel it's improvised in a way that the vast majority of players would not be able to react.

Just his overall ability to react, act, moving his body in the perfect way. In situations that other would get stuck, because the movement required would involve something different than their otherwise vast majority of move.

Somebody quoted a book about Jordan's time in baseball, and some guy that measured reflexes for MLB baseball players said that Jordan's reaction time, in his 30s, was the fastest he'd ever tested.

Then on top of that, he didn't get enough space.



Senses that in a split second, and so he fakes to his left again, and creates a more open shot.




Agreed - that's what made MJ next-level - his ability to know what the defense will do and counteract quickly upon the catch

Here's one of my favorite moves that he would do - he would move TOWARDS a rushing double-teamer, thus using their momentum against them to get open - it's an aikido-like move and genius:







Here's a great video that you've probably seen showing all post plays - he's doubled on literally half of them, so he's eluding defenders like crazy the whole video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:04 PM   #37
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

Ewing with his travel across the lane and double dribbles, Webber with his arm hook spins, the moving pivot on the dreamshake, and shaq "Touching people up" with the elbow as he put it....Jordan wasnt really among the most violation prone guys of the 90s....but yes he would travel at times and some of his change of directions were a carry....but thats the same for most guys with huge hands. When your hand is half the ball its hard not to be a little under it as you explode the other direction. People used to bitch about it....but he was just under a bigger spotlight.

He wasnt all that obvious with it.
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:26 PM   #38
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Ewing with his travel across the lane and double dribbles, Webber with his arm hook spins, the moving pivot on the dreamshake, and shaq "Touching people up" with the elbow as he put it....Jordan wasnt really among the most violation prone guys of the 90s....but yes he would travel at times and some of his change of directions were a carry....but thats the same for most guys with huge hands. When your hand is half the ball its hard not to be a little under it as you explode the other direction. People used to bitch about it....but he was just under a bigger spotlight.

He wasnt all that obvious with it.
That's truth, but the old heads in my life back then made sure i knew he carried the ball on his drives, they were not fans to say the least.

One thing for sure no one would do what they did in the 60s, 90s or otherwise. I doubt half the modern wingss would be able to do half of what is done from the 90s on.
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:36 PM   #39
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

Yea I wont dispute that the previous generation called it out. He did carry relative to what they came up on.....but less than the Durant and Giannis types now.
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:39 PM   #40
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Yea I wont dispute that the previous generation called it out. He did carry relative to what they came up on.....but less than the Durant and Giannis types now.
In my circle they hate to hear it but i always remind them Kd didn't make the next leap until they stopped calling carrying on him, and likewise with Giannis.
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:40 PM   #41
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

Shaq got away with blatant offensive fouls in the 01 nba finals. Refs call it the Sixers win a title.
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Old 06-18-2019, 07:16 PM   #42
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

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Originally Posted by sdot_thadon
I somehow don't think the point of the Op was today's players don't get away with things. I'm pretty sure it's something along the lines of even the goat got away with things whether you like it or not.

You might be right, since OP didn't really describe the purpose of his thread, other than what is in the title. And my response, as I made clear, indicated that Jordan did, at times, get preferential superstar treatment (what superstar doesn't?). But some of the follow up responses to the thread grossly exaggerated whatever Jordan violations did get away with. TBH, my point is that today's superstars actually get away with a lot more that would have been easy travels/fouls/flops in today's era.

If anything, the league is even more deferential to superstars today than in yesteryear.
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Old 06-18-2019, 09:27 PM   #43
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

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Originally Posted by Elosha
You might be right, since OP didn't really describe the purpose of his thread, other than what is in the title. And my response, as I made clear, indicated that Jordan did, at times, get preferential superstar treatment (what superstar doesn't?). But some of the follow up responses to the thread grossly exaggerated whatever Jordan violations did get away with. TBH, my point is that today's superstars actually get away with a lot more that would have been easy travels/fouls/flops in today's era.

If anything, the league is even more deferential to superstars today than in yesteryear.

This is not up for debate
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Old 06-19-2019, 01:47 AM   #44
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

It’s no secret Jordan and other stars got away with a lot of stuff. Sports illustrated had a cover article on Jordan like two weeks into his pro career and said “he’s already getting star treatment, referees are letting him travel”. So before he entered the league, stars (such as Dr. J) were known to get away with traveling.

To name a couple others, Olajuwon and Ewing got away with travelling a lot. The difference is, Hakeem was graceful and had brilliant footwork. He would travel, but it was often hard to see. Ewing, on the other hand, was more noticeable.

https://youtu.be/QU_8Z3iqodg
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:19 AM   #45
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Default Re: This is what Michael Jordan used to get away with

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Originally Posted by Stringer Bell
It’s no secret Jordan and other stars got away with a lot of stuff. Sports illustrated had a cover article on Jordan like two weeks into his pro career and said “he’s already getting star treatment, referees are letting him travel”. So before he entered the league, stars (such as Dr. J) were known to get away with traveling.

To name a couple others, Olajuwon and Ewing got away with travelling a lot. The difference is, Hakeem was graceful and had brilliant footwork. He would travel, but it was often hard to see. Ewing, on the other hand, was more noticeable.

https://youtu.be/QU_8Z3iqodg

I'd agree with you here in general, but it's also "no secret" that today's stars get away with a lot more, and lot more frequently, and lot more blatantly. The (relatively speaking) subtle and less frequent travels in the 90's has morphed into today's stars, and even role players being able to take 3-4 steps routinely on drives/fastbreaks without dribbling or taking three to four hop steps for a step back three (Harden), huge benefits to the offensive player when you think about it. They'd never get away with such routine violations in any other era.
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